A Model 8 from 1912, and an issue

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Bill in Oregon
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:56 pm
Location: Nolan County, Texas

A Model 8 from 1912, and an issue

Post by Bill in Oregon »

I just bought a Model 8 in .25 Remington from a large "collector gun" seller in Houston. They said it had "strong rifling" which always makes me a bit uneasy. But when the rifle arrived this morning it looked to be in pretty decent shape. No cracks in the wood so far, metal mostly smooth patina with a little light freckling on the barrel shroud. I removed the barrel and taking a quick peak from the breech end, the bore looked passable, cleanable -- at least a jacketed bullet shooter. So I grabbed a rod and a bronze brush, dipped it in Hoppes and gave her a couple of strokes. Hmmm. Feels like a loose spot up toward the muzzle. Maybe just crud. But another eight strokes and then a patch through told a sad story: the barrel was badly rung about five inches from the muzzle. Additional brushing and patching and a soak with Wipeout and I saw something I have never seen before in more than a half-century messing about with guns: the bore was lightly rung FOUR MORE TIMES between the first deep one and the muzzle crown!
I have been puzzling over this discovery all afternoon and still can't quite sort it out, but it probably accounts for why the rifle is otherwise in pretty good shape for having left Ilion while Taft was still president.
Considering my options, the first that comes to mind is to clean the bore as best I can, then see if it will shoot a 117-grain roundnose with any sort of accuracy. I doubt it will, so my second thought was that the least expensive route would be to have the last five inches of the barrel counterbored. I would see a loss of speed going from a 22-inch tube to one 17 inches long, but it would seem that accuracy might be passable -- even with cast.
Third option would be to have it relined by someone such as Bobby Hoyt.
The fourth would be to find a spare .25 barrel for a Model 8 just gathering dust in someone's shop. HA! Not hardly.
I'll get some photos up here in the next day or two. The rifle has the deep crescent butt with the Remington UMC logo on a circle. The receiver is not marked SAFE when the safety is in position. The only other markings on the outside of the rear half of the rifle are the "Remington Trade Mark" on the tang, and the serial number, 28XXX, with an F above and a K in a circle below it.
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Hibby83
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:35 am

Re: A Model 8 from 1912, and an issue

Post by Hibby83 »

Congrats on the 25. I, myself am a proud new owner of a 25 too.

Sorry I can’t offer any assistance on a barrel or what route would suit the situation.

I wish the best and hope to hear good report back on what you come up with and how it groups in current condition.

I assume this would be the most expensive route. Possibility of utilizing a appropriate barrel “takeoff or new” and having a competent smith turn it to the appropriate profile and ream the chamber.
Bill in Oregon
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:56 pm
Location: Nolan County, Texas

Re: A Model 8 from 1912, and an issue

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Hibby, nice to hear you found a .25 as well.
I think what I will do is shoot it first and see how it performs. I only just ordered bullets, brass and dies from Grafs yesterday, so I won't have any test ammo until next week.
I am continuing the Wipeout cycles and still getting deep blue patches, so there was a heck of a lot of copper fouling in the bore in addition to the rings.
The counterbore option is my first choice if it won't shoot as is.
Bill in Oregon
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:56 pm
Location: Nolan County, Texas

Re: A Model 8 from 1912, and an issue

Post by Bill in Oregon »

In regard to this rifle, have posted this on a couple of forums:

Guys, I have been watching for years for a Model 8 in .25 that I could afford. I spotted one Sunday at Guns International and reached out to the seller, Collectors Firearms of Houston, TX. The deal was done and the rifle arrived Wednesday, very well-packed.
When I dug it out of the styrofoam peanuts, I was very pleased: wood sound, metal finish almost uniformly that olive blue shade, just a bit of freckling and a quick glance down the bore with a light in the receiver suggested that it might clean up very nicely. "Good bore, strong rifling" had been their description.
But alas, when I pulled the barrel assembly off and ran a bronze brush soaked in Hoppe's down the bore, I hit a wide spot near the muzzle. Fearing the worst, the borelight confirmed a badly rung bore about inch 17 of the 22 -- and three more shallower rings between the first one and the muzzle! I have never seen multiple rings like this.
So on Thursday, I sent photos and an e-mail to Collectors Firearms with the comment that the bore they described as "good" would be described by most riflemen as "ruined," and what incentive would they offer for me to keep the rifle rather than return for a full refund.
The most straightforward option would be to shoot it and see if it is accurate; one never knows. The second option would be to counterbore the barrel down to the first ring. The next most drastic option would be a reline and rechamber, but that would be very expensive. And no machinist in his right mind would attempt to turn, mill and rifle a duplicate. Browning designed for things to work; the machining needed to make the parts seemed secondary.
Anyway, I suggested it would cost about 25 percent of the purchase price to ship the barrel to a gunsmith and have it counterbored. Collectors agreed and promptly refunded the amount this morning.
I felt compelled to lay out this case first to note how easy it can be to innocently overestimate rifling condition. One would think sellers would at least run a patch down the bore of used firearms they consign or resell, but I cannot count the number of times over the years when I have examined a rifle for sale whose bore had scarcely if ever been cleaned, and I used to bring put a cleaning rod and patches in the truck when going on the hunt at gun and pawn shops.
I of course could not examine the bore of the Model 8 before purchase, but at first glance it looked OK to me, too. I do not believe Collectors intentionally inflated the bore condition.
The second point is simply to congratulate Collectors on their prompt, courteous and fair customer service. I would buy from them again without hesitation -- except to confirm bore condition is as described.
Here are a couple of images of the Model 8. Dies, brass and bullets arrive next week so I will be able to load a sample of cartridges for testing.

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Bill in Oregon
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:56 pm
Location: Nolan County, Texas

Re: A Model 8 from 1912, and an issue

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Just heard from a wiser man than I -- and there are so very many of them! :D --that the barrel, once free of the jacket and springs, disassembles further, to the point it might not be ruinous to have a new one turned and chambered. Help Mr. Wizard!
9.3shooter
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:08 am

Re: A Model 8 from 1912, and an issue

Post by 9.3shooter »

Most unfortunate and bizarre to say the least. Glad CF refunded your money. Now to keep looking, which is at least half the fun anyway.

When you do find a shooter, I think you will be a happy camper, I know I am. I bought one a couple years ago from a well known seller on Gunbroker and when asked to describe the bore, he did, and upon receipt of the rifle, I totally concurred and its a fine shooter.
Mine had a replacement buttstock but other wise seems pretty much original at least in style and vintage.

I call the model 8 Remington in .25 cal the Frank Hamer special as it was his favorite personal rifle, and I can sure see why.

Good luck in the search.
Bill in Oregon
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:56 pm
Location: Nolan County, Texas

Re: A Model 8 from 1912, and an issue

Post by Bill in Oregon »

9.3 Shooter, I still have the Model 8. I did not seek a full refund because I didn't want to let go of it completely on the off chance it can somehow be made to shoot. Dies, brass and bullets are due here on Tuesday, so I should have an update in a few days.
9.3shooter
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:08 am

Re: A Model 8 from 1912, and an issue

Post by 9.3shooter »

Oh I see. I misunderstood.

I wanted to let you know that there are currently 5 .25 Rems on Gunbroker right now for varying prices.
Bill in Oregon
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:56 pm
Location: Nolan County, Texas

Re: A Model 8 from 1912, and an issue

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Finally got the .25 to the range. Loads consisted of the Hornady 117-grain RN over 26.5 grains CFE223 in Grafs brass.
Poor old Model 8 scattered the 117s at random. At 25 yards, four of five shots hit the 25-yard slow-fire pistol target -- oddly two a half-inch apart at 11 o'clock and two an inch apart at 7 o'clock. Bullet holes round.
At 50 yards, two out of 10 rounds struck that same 25-yard slow-fire target. The other eight apparently departed in a northerly direction for Amarillo.
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