C grade at auction

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Hibby83
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C grade at auction

Post by Hibby83 »

It's seldom you see the C grades pop up for sale. That one sure has some nice figure on the wood! The Lyman sight classes it up a bit. Luckily it still retains the arrow for the graduation marks, I've seen more without than with.

I asked the seller for a better picture of the bolt carrier, regarding photo #14.

No horse in the race for me. Good luck to the bidders, 9 1/2 days left and it's already interesting.

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S and S HUNTCLUB
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by S and S HUNTCLUB »

Hello, I was bidding on it because it's a hard to find C-Grade pistol grip Top-Tang in a great Whitetail deer hunting caliber.

Then I noticed the bolt carrier was damaged... rendering it unsafe to shoot, without replacing the bolt carrier and inspecting the other components.

I purchased a model 8 on the cheap many years ago with that same issue on the bolt carrier. After disassembling the barrel, I also found that someone had installed the barrel components incorrectly, with the buffer spring, then the recoil spring and then...the recoil spring case upside down. The force of the recoil had also mushroomed out the opening of the recoil spring case as it slammed against the buffer spring. If you have the components to rebuild the rifle... its not a big deal.

I've had five or six top tang butt plate model 8's in the past and only one was a pistol grip version. For whatever reason, the butt plate and butt stocks were never numbers matching to the receiver serial numbers on any of the rifles. It was disappointing on the first top tang that I purchased, but then found it to be common on the others too.

At the time of the publishing of John Henwood's last addition... only six Model 8's with the top tang steel rifle style butt plate were known to have surfaced, but there's definitely more out there.

It has the later version Lyman 41R FBI receiver sight, which is a nice addition, but the way it's installed could split your eyebrow open. LOL.

It's a nice looking rifle! I stopped bidding just shy of $1,900 after I noticed the damaged bolt carrier.
It'll be fascinating to see where it goes regarding price.
Enjoy life, Bob

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Hibby83
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by Hibby83 »

Certainly correct about the top tang rifles being extra rare. I have seen less than what it takes to count on one hand available for purchase since I've been looking.

I have 1 top tang pistol gripped 8 and the numbers on the butt don't match up either. I believe it to have a stock set made by CBR.

Easy fix indeed concerning the bolt carrier. Fortunately they aren't hard to source and not too expensive.

The Lyman side mounted receiver sights aren't very friendly for left handers "like me". The example I shot bites the index finger a little bit. I now wear gloves anytime I fire it.

It's sure a fine rifle that I wouldn't mind being the owner of!

54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

Okay I see that there are some keen eyed model 8 pros out there that know far more than me about the mechanics of a model 8 !!! I can do basic cleaning and lubing but have never taken a bolt assembly apart on one of these guns. If by chance I should win the gun is there someone out there that I could pay who would have the parts and knowledge to fix the bolt carrier and any other problem with the mechanics of the gun for me ??? I saw what looked to be slightly bent parts in picture 14 but didn't know quite what I was looking at.

It is a nice looking old model 8-C that I would like to add to my small collection of 8s and 81s !!
Thanks !! John Taylor

54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

So just to make sure I have this right. The bolt carrier in the picture is bent to the outsides of where the extractor slides back and forth ?? Is that correct ?? I guess what I would need is that whole assembly that bolt, extractor, and firing pin fit onto ?? Am I looking at this correctly ?? I have watched some videos and that is what I am seeing. Any comments would be helpful ! Thanks
John Taylor

54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

Part 2 - How would that happen ?? Incorrect assembly ????

54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

Well I think I see how it happens. There are two groves in bolt carrier that extractor fits into and there are two wings on extractors rails that must have been pried upward some how. I think I can handle fixing it if I can get parts. I hope :lol: John

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Hibby83
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by Hibby83 »

Hello John.

I'm not as well seasoned as some members here, but here's my opinion.

I don't believe that there is a problem "in general" with how an 8/81 is put together that has this issue. I feel that the extractor groove is so thin and close to the top edge of the carrier that if the metallurgy was off a little this issue arises. Different theory- there was extraction issues and someone tried bending it to assist with weak ejection aiding in that happening?

I can't guarantee anything condition wise on that gun. As long as the extractor is ok, I don't believe there would be any other issue with the whole bolt assembly, short the carrier. Generally speaking, the only part I THINK you'd need would be is the carrier.

options
1- buy a bare bolt carrier and swap your good parts over to it.
2- purchase a good & complete bolt carrier assembly that has the correct 35 REM bolt & extractor "there's 3 different size bolt faces, one for the 25-30-32, one for the 35 and one for the 300" and drop the whole unit in.

You have a knowledgeable group of people here along with posts on how it's done and links to how to video's.

54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

Thanks Hibby83 !!! For the response. After watching a good youtube video I think I will be okay as long as I can find the carrier !! Oh yeah I forgot I have to win the gun first LOL !! Thanks for the help ! John Taylor

chas1949
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by chas1949 »

Two things Have been noticed by me concerning this rifle.
First I believe it is quite possible that a differant extractor was improperly fitted and or adjusted in this rifle. In the center of the extractor there are two small wings and a flat that some times has to be filed down (fitted) to move smoothly without binding in the small grooves in the carrier. This could excessively wear out the grooves in the carrier in the area shown when the bolt is pushed back into the carrier as it returns to battery. Another possibility is that the extractor has been bent too much in an effort to achieve better extraction of spent brass and wearing top of groove in the carrier.
It also appears as though the AT rear sight is not mounted correctly. Is it not mounted too far to the rear and covering the rear screw in the receiver.

54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

chas1949
I understand what your saying about the wings on extractor and the slide would need to fit neatly into carriers groves so not to cause excessive wear on the grooves causing failure like it seems to have. I can also see if someone bent the extractor it would also cause excessive wear !! If I won the gun I would check that out thoroughly and replace any thing it needed.

As far a sight being in wrong spot ??? Are you saying it should have been farther forward ? If so wouldn't it still cover that screw ??
John Taylor

chas1949
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by chas1949 »

If Cam reads this maybe he could repost the drawing of the correct placement for this sight AT41.

chas1949
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by chas1949 »

E9B18695-8520-4B48-8B57-1F775DF608A2.jpeg
E9B18695-8520-4B48-8B57-1F775DF608A2.jpeg (281.02 KiB) Viewed 1888 times

Got it this time

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Hibby83
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by Hibby83 »

Regarding sight placement.

I have a D grade that i can only assume sports factory ordered sights. It has the Lyman 41 just like the one John is bidding on and it's in the exact same position. On my engraved 8 i have an idea that perhaps they wanted to showcase as much of the engraving as possible and mounted it there.

The position proves no issue to the shooter, there's considerable room between it and any part of the face. The only thing i think is undesirable is when cleaning or troubleshooting needs to happen, sight removal is necessary. The zero of the rifle is likely to be affected some " i can't say how much, only theory". I didn't shoot mine before i cleaned it, I shot it after an overdue cleaning.

I believe the best placement "in general" is as pictured by chas. I don't feel mounting it all the way back giving but a couple inches more of sight radius helps accuracy. I'll spitball and say, maybe it helps focus?

54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

Well thank you chas1949 for the drawing of where the sight should be mounted !! Now I see why Bob from S and S HUNTCLUB said it could split your eyebrow open :lol: I guess there isn't much that can be done about sight positioning now but like Hibby83 said having it mounted like that still allows it to be shot with out eye damage LOL !! I can see it might be a little nicer with sight's eye piece just above the back of receiver like in the drawing !! Oh well I would still like to own it !!
Thanks to all for the insight on the gun ! John Taylor

chas1949
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by chas1949 »

IMG_0264 41AT R (2).jpg
IMG_0264 41AT R (2).jpg (73.43 KiB) Viewed 1859 times
This is mine

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81police
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 81police »

The bolt carrier cracking/chipping around the extractor groove is not exactly uncommon. It's possible lateral pressure is exerted on the carrier by the extractor and that pressure creates enough stress on the thin groove of the carrier that is splits. I've always wondered if the pressure was created when the bolt carrier compresses the action spring in the stock and if there's too much remaining energy the carrier hits the back of the receiver and that rearward intertia flexes the extractor inside the groove. Or maybe the forces required to extract a stubborn case are creating that flex on the extractor too. I don't know. We had a Model 8 in 35Rem with a chipped carrier and never had any issue with extraction or function.

Below are a few pictures I've kept over the years and a photo of the carrier & extractor I made years ago
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chipped bolt carrier.jpg
chipped bolt carrier.jpg (99.56 KiB) Viewed 1852 times
cracked bolt carrier.JPG
cracked bolt carrier.JPG (166.04 KiB) Viewed 1852 times
Cam Woodall
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54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

chas1949 wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:30 am
IMG_0264 41AT R (2).jpg

This is mine
Nice !!!!!!!

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Re: C grade at auction

Post by chas1949 »

It does appear that since our discussions on this rifle that bidding has stopped.
To my way of thinking the nice stock and fore end does not justify a price anywhere near the current bid even without the issues discussed.
To each his own i guess.

54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

On the other hand you have probably been collecting model 8s for many years and managed to get a good collection when prices were MUCH cheaper !! Seems anything that is in real nice condition especially any high grade guns go for much BIGGER money now then just a few years ago. I am 66 and am new to the model 8 and 81 scene and really like them !!! I have many other Remington rifles and others but have thing now about the "spring poles" as you call them so the time to buyem is when you see them LOL !! Thanks for all your input and pictures !!
John Taylor "high bidder at this point" :lol:

Rifleman
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by Rifleman »

chas1949 wrote:
Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:37 am
It does appear that since our discussions on this rifle that bidding has stopped.
To my way of thinking the nice stock and fore end does not justify a price anywhere near the current bid even without the issues discussed.
To each his own i guess.
I'll agree with chas1949 that the current bid price is way over the value of the rifle, sorry to throw mud in your anticipation 54bullseye, but what is, is IMO. Recently on GB a 1945 81 35 Rem sold for $2425. Supposedly had original box, hang tag, and owner's manual. Could have had, there are sellers on GB and other auctions that have sold firearms with the predescribed items that either are capable of making items appear old or can buy them from somewhere. The Rem 81 in the auction was in nice shape, but no more of value than any other decent 81 valued at $800-1000. The buyer IMO bought a rifle at that value and paid $1425 for an old box, hang tag and manual (plus possible sales tax, shipping, GB fees, and FFL transfer fee). The seller in the first bidding of the rifle had a reserve on it and bidding stopped at $1856 when time ran out and the reserve had not been met.

Firearms in that price range IMO and others need to be seen by the eyeballs. I've seen other auction firearms that had red flags sticking up according to seller's descriptions and pictures. In late spring or so 0f 2020, 8/81 prices started going up, way up. Guys were buying $700-850 8/81's for $1000-1400. Many said that was the price to stay. They've dropped back in most cases to $700-900 depending on condition. I've been monitoring (watch list) on GB and Guns International since June of 2020 for most all in 300 Savage and 35 Remington (a few in the other calibers) and the average price has dropped since the heady overpriced days when a run of the mill 8/81 was selling for $1000 plus. There are exceptions of course of rifles bought back in the day and fired little and well cared for since, but they are exceptions.

In regard to posting live, current auctions on forums such as this 81C, sometimes it is not in the best interest to forum members who are interested in or are bidding. I'm a member of the Savage 99 Collectors forum on the '24 Hour Campfire Forum' and the long-time members there have a gentleman's agreement (posted also in the do's and don'ts) not to post live on-going auctions on the forum. Reason is that members who are bidding on a rifle they hope to get don't have to be in competition with those who are not forum members who only 'surf' the forum. Looking at the bidders list on this 81C, I note at least three members on this forum and possibly another. I realize GB is a public auction available to those who qualify, but I'd sure hate to have the price of a 8/81 driven up I may be interested in by forum surfers. Also sort of prevents any ill will that IMO that may be caused by forum members who may be bidding on the same gun. Maybe that thought is of no consequence to members here, as chas1949 advised "To each his own I guess"!

I've never seen any 'gentlemen's' agreement or rule on the 8/81 forum regarding posting about live auctions, may be there and not enforced, the above paragraph is just my opinion, your thoughts may vary.

54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

TO ALL IN THE GROUP !!
I kinda agree with chas1949 in what he said about talking about a auction listing before the auction has ended . The reason I did chime in this time was others in the group had already started the conversation and seeing how I was high bidder and my GunBroker name is the same as my group name so it was pretty obvious who the nut was that was bidding so high LOL !! I also wanted to know what type of fix it would take to make the gun into a safe shooter. Having said that I also realize some people have different reasons to value a gun at to much $$$$ Or to little $$$$ and that is there right to that opinion.

If I win that gun I will fix it up the best I can and be proud to own it !! If I loose it congrats to the winner and he or she should be proud to own it !! I have a lot of guns some I have probably paid to much for but there are many others that I have gotten smoking cheap deals on so to me it all works out in the end !! Good luck !! John Taylor

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Hibby83
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by Hibby83 »

Mr. Taylor

Keep your positive outlook. You're the high bidder on a rare C grade Model 8.

The way the sight is mounted. It's no further back than a tang mounted peep, like the Lyman/Marbles "to the effect of striking the shooter".
Regarding the position. I feel it's in a cleaner spot "aesthetically", in my opinion. For ease of rifle cleaning, it's a small extra step in the process.

The opinions on price are their own, not yours. Good luck!

54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

Thanks Hibby83 !!! I can take a bit of criticism with no problem. I have paid to much for rifles in some peoples mind only to sell them for a handsome profit in just a short time so all is good !!
John Taylor

54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

Well I guess I gotta find some parts for the C grade :D John Taylor

chas1949
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by chas1949 »

There is a carrier on ebay

54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

Thanks I saw that one it looks like it is getting bent up on one side to. I found one from my buddie Scott in NH he had a bolt carrier with firing pin and an extractor for a 35 rem so already ordered both. I hope that's all it needs. Thanks for the heads up. John Taylor

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Re: C grade at auction

Post by Rifleman »

54bullseye wrote:
Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:24 am
TO ALL IN THE GROUP !!
I kinda agree with chas1949 in what he said about talking about a auction listing before the auction has ended . The reason I did chime in this time was others in the group had already started the conversation
Hey '54bullseye'-To make the record accurate, I was the one who posted about not posting/talking about live auctions on the forum, not 'chas1949', just to clear him of the statement. I realize you didn't start the thread and did just "chime in" but as before IMO don't like to see live auctions posted for the reasons stated. Where the 8C was being sold at wasn't told, but it wasn't hard to figure out. In a way I realize it is a means to make members aware of 8/81's for sale but too much publicity can backfire for members for the reasons I stated.

Anyway, hope you enjoy the 8C and can get it repaired to make it shootable if you plan on shooting. I'm a bit conservative on gun pricing/value and buying really high dollar guns online am skittish. When possible, I always PM and/or talk with any seller on a online auction about condition of a used firearm to answer any questions I may have that aren't printed and get a honesty feel of a seller. I red flag em if they refuse to answer a PM question, not take a phone call, and/or flunk the honesty feel or accurate firearm knowledge on a call. Twenty-one years as a LEO gave me a feel when talking to someone. You take care. Rifleman

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81police
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 81police »

For the record, there are no rules on here regarding posts on live auctions, we have always welcomed them. There are, in fact, very few rules apart from always extending kindness and respect to other members even amidst differences of opinion.

Congrats to the 8C auction winner!!!!
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54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

Sorry chas1949 for mistaking you for Rifleman !!! My mistake but no harm done. I appreciate all the input on the C grade as I did win the auction and hopefully I can get it straight. Maybe not the highest condition gun but a very cool old Remington none the less !! Thanks to all. John Taylor

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S and S HUNTCLUB
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by S and S HUNTCLUB »

Hi John, Just got an email from remcrazy this morning. It appears someone is selling your PA ROCKEFELLER Model 8 on Gunbroker.

https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/946325413

I assumed it was a scam!
Enjoy life, Bob / S and S HUNTCLUB
Last edited by S and S HUNTCLUB on Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

Wow same pics and all. How did they get it out of my safe LOL !! I guess I should let someone know ?? Never saw that before. John

54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

S and S HUNTCLUB wrote:
Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:13 am
Hi John, Just got an email from remcrazy this morning. It appears someone is selling your PA ROCKEFELLER Model 8 on Gunbroker.

https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/946325413

I'm assumed it was a scam!
Enjoy life, Bob / S andSHUNTCLUB
I just reported it on gunbroker. John

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Roger
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by Roger »

Congratulations to you Mr. Taylor. I’m glad that someone who appreciates this rare piece won the auction. However it’s very disturbing that someone is trying to scam people with the other rifle. If these people spent half as much time doing an actual job, the world would certainly be a much better place.
By the way,I thought you and my friend Robopump had lost your minds in the beginning. But I think I’m still living in the past when it comes to gun values today. The pandemic has certainly changed the landscape,at least in my opinion.
Thanks for your time
Roger
Roger
raw4555@gmail.com

54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

Thanks for the reply Roger ! I am glad Robopump backed off because I was done to !! I do like the rifle and am looking forward to getting it.
As far as the other one getting scammed on GB your right what a rotten piece of crap that guy or gal must be !! There is a lot of BAD going on out there for sure and it doesn't look like it's gonna get better very fast ! I honestly am glad I was born when I was as the future ain't looking real bright !!

Thanks again for all the comments concerning the C-Grade I really appreciate the feedback. I will post a few pics once I have the problems with the bolt fixed. John Taylor

54bullseye
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by 54bullseye »

Well I tackled the bolt carrier on the C-Grade today. As soon as I took the big spring out of the back of the receiver a little piece fell out !!! It was the big end of the firing pin so I am glad one was present on the bolt carrier I bought.

I watched the take down videos on the site and all seemed to go smoothly. It seems to cycle fine now but I haven't shot it yet. I am going to shoot it next week with fingers crossed. I am glad to have taken it apart as it was very cruddy and needed a good cleaning !!!

Like Bob said early in this thread the wood was not serial numbered to the receiver but sounds like that was common in the round knob guns.

Thanks for looking ! John Taylor
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Hibby83
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Re: C grade at auction

Post by Hibby83 »

Nice job getting it back together, I knew you could do it!

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