New to the Model 8

[arschend]

Greetings - I inherited a Model 8 from my father-in-law a few weeks ago and started to research it (and found a lot of info here and in a few other places). Chambered for .30 Rem, S/N 163288, which indicates it was made in 1930 (I think). A very little bit of rust here and there and a lot of surface crud, but otherwise, it's in pretty nice shape. The action seems to work beautifully and I found a couple on-line sources for the ridiculously expensive ammo, so ordered a few 20 round boxes from the sources.

Last week I went to a gun-savvy friend and we oiled everything up and cleaned the barrel without any disassembly. I then showed him the break-down barrel feature, reassembled it and off we went to the range. Once we got there, we found that the bolt refused to extend all the way to the chamber. Something was interfering. Well, I used the instructions found here -->http://www.flickr.com/photos/buster_cha ... 42/detail/ and started to disassemble and finally got to the bolt and realized that the alignment problem was the bolt failing to extend fully to the end of the cam stops, which was making the bolt line-up incorrectly to slide into the breech. The instructions showed a firing pin spring and buffer spring, but in my Mod 8, there was nothing around the firing pin - how odd. Then I started reading more about the Mod 8 and aparently not all models had a firing pin spring (nor a left-side magazine side spring). What's up with that?

As far as I can tell, the firing pin spring is what provides the internal tension to fully-extend the cam-slotted bolt so it will line up correctly with the breech when the bolt closes. How can this action work properly without a firing pin spring to provide that forward tension on the bolt? I'm perplexed. I found a source for a Model 8 firing pin spring and ordered it (and haven't received it yet), but am now thinking that this rifle never had one in the first place. If that's the case, I need advice on what to do to make the bolt extend fully to the end of the cam slots without the aid of a firing pin spring. Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks in advance and thanks for all the great info posted here.

[81police]

arschend,

Welcome to The Great 8! You inherited a fine, classic American autoloader!

To answer a few of your questions...

I started reading more about the Mod 8 and aparently not all models had a firing pin spring (nor a left-side magazine side spring). What's up with that?

variations with these guns is just like any other firearm that's had a long production history, small engineering changes/improvements over time. As you found out, early Model 8's did not have either a firing pin nor a firing pin buffer spring. Model 8's came with a few different firing pins throughout production, if yours didn't come with a spring, I'd leave it the way it was made.

How can this action work properly without a firing pin spring to provide that forward tension on the bolt?

If we're thinking about the same thing, what makes the bolt & carrier return forward (after the barrel has recoiled forward of course) is the long action spring located inside the stock. It is housed inside a tube extending from the top tang of the receiver. You can only see this if the stock is removed. This spring is compressed when the bolt & carrier are pushed backwards by the recoiling force of the barrel.

What happens when you work the action by hand?

[arschend]

Hi - Thanks for the quick reply. As far as I can tell, that long action spring is intact and provided adequate tension to slide the ENTIRE bolt assembly forward. My issue seems to be with the inner bolt cylinder not extending to the limit allowed by the cam pins/slots. I'm attaching some marked-up pictures (from the website I referenced earlier) and added some of my own comments. You'll see that the firing pin spring extends the cam-slotted bolt cylinder to align with the extractor, but I can't see that the long action spring has any effect on that cam-slotted inner bolt cylinder.

Mod8Bolt1.jpg (147.13 KiB) Viewed 6909 times

Mod8Bolt2.jpg (84.3 KiB) Viewed 6909 times

Mod8Bolt3.jpg (144.86 KiB) Viewed 6909 times

[81police]

arschend

I see what you're saying. I can assure you that spring is not necessary. To my knowledge, it was added as a safety feature to prevent slam fires. The bolt head can get out of alignment (if you take takedown the gun and move the bolt for example) and my fix for this to take a flathead screwdriver, place it under one of the lugs, and gently give it upwards and forward pressure to realign the bolt. I do this, then work the action a few times. Never had a problem and this is with rifles w/out springs.

[arschend]

The bolt head can get out of alignment (if you take takedown the gun and move the bolt for example)

Yup - this is exactly what happened to me and the bolt cylinder inexplicably never returned to it's fully extended (and properly aligned) position to fit into the barrel slot as the bolt closed.

So you're saying that a small screwdriver is a semi-necessary accessory to have handy when out shooting the Model 8?

[ROBOPUMP]

There is a force here on planet earth called gravity. If you have taken your rifle down and have set the receiver end down on the floor or table with the butt plate down and the rifle has some wear in the cam pin bolt and bolt carrier, the bolt will twist out of position. Now to get it back in position, simply invert the receiver where the butt plate is facing the ceiling. If badly worn and loosey goosey, the bolt will return to the proper position for reassembly with the barrel jacket assembly. If only slightly worn, you may have to tap it on the table a couple of times to get the bolt to cam forward. Now pick it up and extend it toward the ceiling and you will probably see the bolt in the correct position. Keep it vertical. Now to reassemble the rifle, put the mussel on the floor and lower the receiver onto the barrel jacket assembly. Everything should go right back together. For some reason, once the rifle is reassembled, the bolt does not rotate out of position when the chamber is opened. The firing pin springs have nothing to do with this.

ROB

[Phyrbird]

The bolt lock spring rides over 2 small sections of key in the receiver housing. This spring locks the rotating part of the bolt open and closed until the the spring is depressed in the bolt carrier. Then the bolt can rotate. If your spring is worn or the keys are worn this would allow the bolt to get out of time with the barrel. You can duplicate this Error by holding the bolt half open then pushing the bolt face to the rear. Just be sure to put it back before trying to close the action.
A worn spring can be replaced, the keys in the back of the receiver are another matter. They are riveted in place and finished blued at the factory. A REAL tough repair.

[arschend]

Ya - ain't gravity a strange, yet wonderful thing...

I reassembled the receiver, cleaning and lubing everything very nicely, aligned the bolt and fit it into the barrel. Four (expensive) test shots later, it's still A-OK. The only problem is the tree the target was pinned-to. There are several holes in the BACK side of the 8" trunk. That .30 Rem is one powerful beast! As someone pretty new to rifles larger than .22 LR, that kind of power was really impressive.

Next project is a 1917-vintage Model 1897 Winchester 12ga pump shotgun. It fires great but looks like hell. I'm in the midst of tearing that one down and using a light touch with some 0000 steel wool and oil to get rid of the rust and grime. The inside of the barrel is pristine, though.

Regards to all,
Al

[81police]

Glad to hear you got it all figured out arschend! The 30Rem is a great cartridge, especially on the recoil when compared to the 35Rem & 300Sav. Enjoy

ROBOPUMP & Phyrbird thanks for the additional insights in helping this man out

[ROBOPUMP]

I'm not one to beat a dead horse and hopefully this will be the last chapter on this issue. My curiosity was up on why the bolt did not get out of alignment when the rifle was fully assembled. Thanks to Phyrbird, I go the answer I was looking for without any effort. Thank you Phyrbird.
Now, why does it get out of alignment when the barrel jacket assembly is removed. I checked, and the bolt carrier moves at least 3/16" further forward when the barrel jacket is removed and that is just enough for it to go off the keys in the receiver. Caught you JB. If the design would have had keys 1/4" longer, this would have never been an issue. By the way, you can see the rivets that hold the keys in on the left side of the receiver on the outside. They are usually slightly visible on the area just where the receiver starts to round over. I have had some people think that these were plugged screw holes for scope mounting. All the 8/81's have them.

I do like to get into the mechanics and the wonders of how the designs were made. I sometime wonder how someone could come up with the design in the first place if it is so hard to figure out how it works.

DONE.

Thank you for your time.

ROB