thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com

Went to Charlotte, NC gun show last weekend and there was a Bonnie and Clyde display. Many types of firearms used by both the Law and the criminals. One of the Model 8's had a neat custom extended magazine. No pictures allowed otherwise would have posted. It sure was neat.

I would have loved to seen it, even just photographs. Most people think Bonnie & Clyde were taken down with the help of a Model 8 with extended magazine...not true. They were taken down though with the help of standard Model 8's.

Cam, I too would have liked to have seen that display, we also must not forget another one of John Browning's designed guns that was used at the take down of those two cold blooded killers, the BAR. Most suredly a fight stopper, tho I believe the first and killing shots were fired by Deputy Prentiss Oakley with a borrowed Model 8. All my best, Joe.

As always, the arguments rage about who used what gun, and whether the "Borrowed Rifle" even existed, and that's unlikely to ever be resolved. I think the new History Channel program about B&C will be coming along fairly shortly - at least the teasers are being aired now.

the best evidence, as with anything, is eye witness testimony (as close to the event as possible) and of course physical evidence. Both of those exist in this case. The photographs of firearms on top of B&C's car are supported by Sheriff Jordan's testimony of "who used what", all from the same year of 1934.

"Deputy Hinton was armed with a Browning automatic rifle. Deputy Alcorn, Captain Hamer and Patrolman Gault were armed with automatic shotguns loaded with buckshot. Deputy Oakley and I were carrying Remington automatic rifles and there was a third rifle of that type available for use. All of us, of course, were carrying our regular sidearms." - True Detective Magazine, November 1934

This debate will undoubtably rage on forever. But upon seeing Cam's latest post here, I remembered a quotation in one of my books,about the Bonnie @Clyde shooting. I can't recall the author, or the person connected to the shooting. But I do remember that this person,who was a participant, mentioned that some of the officers were carryingWinchesters. Now the author ,assumed that he meant Winchester leverguns,along with everyone else. Now I see that one participant claimed that they( Hamer,Gault,etc.) Used automatic shotguns loaded with buckshot.
What if they really meant Winchester model 1911 auto shotguns!! God forbid if that were the case. Those were truly a blown off hand waiting to happen. The 1911 ,as most of you will remember was Winchester's'answer to the Browning Auto 5 shotgun. After the infamous split between JMB and Winchester. Just a really strange thought here but what if?
Thanks for your time,
Roger

It's hard to get past the guns on top of B&C's car.

There is no reasonable explanation for these guns being anything other than the ambush posse's guns. Other law enforcement officers, not involved in the ambush, would not place their firearms up there. I mean Clyde is still in the car with his head hanging out the window. And how many people were carrying around BAR's that day? They're not B&C's guns because there's a photo of B&C's guns against the rear bumper with these guns on top of the car.

Most of the conflicting stories we've all heard comes 30+ years after the ambush.

From a research point of view, there is far greater credibility from early testimony & physical evidence than from interviews 3+ decades later. That's all I'm saying!

81police wrote:It's hard to get past the guns on top of B&C's car.

There is no reasonable explanation for these guns being anything other than the ambush posse's guns. Other law enforcement officers, not involved in the ambush, would not place their firearms up there. I mean Clyde is still in the car with his head hanging out the window. And how many people were carrying around BAR's that day? They're not B&C's guns because there's a photo of B&C's guns against the rear bumper with these guns on top of the car.

Most of the conflicting stories we've all heard comes 30+ years after the ambush.

From a research point of view, there is far greater credibility from early testimony & physical evidence than from interviews 3+ decades later. That's all I'm saying!

I've read everything I can find and heard a bunch of "stuff" ...but like Cam says, gotta go with the pic - worth a lot more then a 1000 words.

From what I have read about Ted Hinton ,he was the one using the Browning Automatic Rifle and from the picture ,it appears to be a standard 1918 Model not a Colt Monitor as is displayed in the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco ,Texas. They have Frank Hamer's Monitor in with the Bonnie and Clyde display as well as some other guns that are most assuredly from the death car. I would like to know the history of that monitor as it is one rare and very,very neat BAR version.

There's no question that there were at least three shotguns, 2 rifles, and a BAR there that day. Two of the three shotguns shown on the roof of the car appear to be Remington Model 11s (or possibly Browning A-5s). Only the end of the barrel of a third shotgun can be seen, so it could well have been something other than a Remington Model 11. The only rifle to be seen on the car roof is a Model 8, caliber undetermined. The BAR, so I have read, was borrowed (along with ammunition for it) from the Army National Guard. If that's true, it would probably have been a standard Model 1918 (but there was also a Cavalry version of the BAR with a heavier barrel and bipod called the Model 1922. The picture does not indicate it is a M1922). It's not likely it would have been a Colt Monitor either, as the Monitor had a prominent muzzle brake which is not seen in the picture. That BAR may have been the "Borrowed rifle" of legend, not a Model 8 borrowed from a dentist. At least one account says that both Model 8s used belonged to Frank Hamer, one in .30 Rem and one in .25 Rem. If true, why he would have used a shotgun instead of one of the rifles is a puzzling question. If there was indeed a third Model 8 present, as Sheriff Jordan stated, it could have been the "Borrowed" gun. And so the debate over who used what continues.

Only five guns are shown on the car. There were six posse members.

Alcorn is holding a model 8, not a shotgun.

Hinton took a M1918 Browning Machine Rifle to the killing. The Colt Monitor R80 in Waco is worth much more as
having allegedly belonged to Hamer (just ask Joaquin), even though it has to rank as one of the ugliest rifles ever
made and a commercial flop.

I had an opportunity once to buy a Winchester M1897 riot shotgun marked "Frank Hamer, Texas Ranger"; let that
one get away, dang it.

A story in the American Rifleman about Frank Hamer several years ago attributed both Hamer and Alcorn with using Model 8s (.30 and .25 respectively - with both being Hamer's rifles). Is that true? I have no idea. But it does not match the Sheriff's 1934 story. Some time ago there was a posting on another forum by someone from Louisiana who said that the "official" reenactment group annual performances at the ambush site give Frank Hamer a shotgun. That would be consistent with the Sheriff's account. The 1968 B&C movie with Warren Beatty was nothing like that - the cops had Thompsons.

I think I would be very suspicious of the authenticity of anything marked "Frank Hamer, Texas Ranger" without a ton of provenance. Sort of like those hundreds of guns owned by Pancho Villa, authenticated by his wife.

Tonight (Wednesday) the National Geographic Channel re-ran "The Real Bonnie and Clyde" (2009). I knew about it but hadn't seen it. I guess the story itself was factual enough, but it provided virtually no information about the guns used by the ambush posse. It did mention that Hinton had a BAR, but nothing was said about its source. There was a very brief shot of Frank Hamer (actually the actor portraying Frank Hamer) holding what appeared to be a Winchester Model 94 rifle while preparing for the ambush. Not a Model 8 to be seen.

Since we don't seem to be able to put this debate to rest,I'll just jog everyone's memory with what our beloved John Henwood wrote in his legendary book the Great Remington 8/81. Taken from an interview with Frank Hamer in July of 1934 by Texas historian Walter Prescott Webb. Hamer said "Jordan and I had automatic shotguns,while the others had Winchester. Actually, several of the participants mentioned Winchester in interviews after the fact. In reality, all members of the shooters group said that Sheriff Jordan was armed with an automatic shotgun of one sort or another. Only one member actually mentioned a Remington model 11. Now I don't doubt that this photo that was actually taken from a home movie is legit. The photo showing the guns on the car roof. But I don't believe that every gun used in that melee was on top of the car. Almost every interview talks about the members of the shooting group had several weapons each. We'll never really know the truth here. In fact, after reading some stuff on Wikipedia last night,they seemed to be convinced that all the shooters gave conflicting accounts on purpose. Supposedly to take pressure off of Deputy Oakley,who admiited to jumping the gun a bit by firing first. Who knows.!
Thanks for your time,and I'm sure some of you wish you hadn't,
Roger

To quote our highly capable and charming former Secretary of State, “What difference at this point does it make?”

Interestingly, Jordan's 1934 article states that Hamer was put on the far end, because of his reputation as a marksman.
I thought that was strange, since Jordan then states that Hamer was armed with a shotgun...

Following is taken from another forum, which I mentioned earlier. Just another viewpoint, veracity undetermined:
------------------------------------

"Allow me to weigh in on the ambush guns.

I belong to a group called Public Enemies of 1934, which is an historical/theatrical group that stages reenactments of 1930s "incidents" involving the likes of Dillinger, Floyd and Bonnie and Clyde.

For the past few years, I have had the privelege and honor to portray Frank Hamer at the annual Bonnie and Clyde Festival in Gibsland, Louisiana, which concludes with a reenactment of the "capture" at the actual ambush site south of town. That is where my avatar picture was taken.

While the organizers of the festival want a show that sort of combines fact, legend and the movies as far as what weapons are presented, we have done considerable research into what was actually used on May 23, 1934.

While the members of the posse suely possessed a variety of firearms, I believe they actually used the following:

Frank Hamer - Remington Model 11 riot gun

Manny Gault - Remington Model 11 riot gun

Bob Alcorn - Remington Model 8

Ted Hinton - BAR

Henderson Jordan - Remington Model 11 with long barrel and

Prentiss Oakley - Remington Model 8

My conclusions are based on the following:

Dallas County Deputies Bob Alcorn and Ted Hinton were featured in a newsreel filmed the day after the ambush, reprising their roles. In that film, Hinton used a military BAR (not a Monitor) and Alcorn used a Remington Model 8, a standard one with a straight gripped stock. Since it was filmed the following day, it is logical that they used the same longarms they had used the previous morning.

Bienville Parish Deputy Prentiss Oakley had borrowed two guns from the town Dentist in Arcadia, Dr. Sheehy, for him and Bienville Parish Sheriff Henderson Jordan to use. Both were guns he had borrowed before to go hunting. One was a .35 caliber Remington Model 8, serial number 48990, a deluxe model with a semi-pistol grip stock. The other gun was either a shotgun or a lever-action Winchester, but we believe it was a shotgun, as we will see below.

There are numerous photos of the long guns recovered from the car after the ambush, those being BARs and sawed-off shotguns, with said weapons leaning against the back of the car, but there is one photo that shows five longarms on the roof of the bandits' car, and they do not match the descriptions of the weapons the Bonnie and Clyde were carrying.

The five guns on the roof are a BAR, a Remington Model 8 (the stock is not visible in the angle of the photo) and three semi-automatic shotguns which appear to be Remington Model 11s. Two of them have riot-length barrels and one is a long-barreled hunting type shotgun.

When considered together, the conclusion is the guns on the roof are Hinton's BAR, either Alcorn's or Oakley's Remington Model 8, and three shotguns used by the remainder of the posse. Since both Hamer and his partner were lawmen, it is logical that the two riot-length shotguns were theirs, leaving a long-barreled hunting Model 11 for Sheriff Jordan, presumably the second gun borrowed from Dr. Sheehy.

As far as Alcorn's BAR and any others, I believe the posse was only planning to stay out until 0900 and were in the process of picking up when the bandits appeared at 0915, and those guns had already been put away. "

Wery, wery interesting. Thanks DWalt

According to the photos we have discussed, I'd say that assessment of firearms used is very accurate. Thanks for sharing Dwalt.