Scopes for the 8 and 81

[jack1653]

Howdy Guys,

I have been sharing emails with Sarge756 and during our exchanges, I mentioned that I was going to inquire with imfuncity about scopes for the Stith Mount. We all have followed Mitch's conquest of the Stith and it was Sarge756 that came to his rescue. Anyway, Sarge765 sent me some information and I asked his permission to post what he sent me.

I find it totally fascinating when somebody can put forth information about a subject that many of us know very little about. In this case it is a history lesson about scopes. Beyond looking through the scope, I know very little about scopes but I am like a sponge when someone shares their knowledge and I thought many of you would like to see what Sarge756 had to say.

81police and I encourage all to submit information about this subject. We would like to see some pictures of the various scopes that you have on your Remington 8 and 81's. I personally have 7 rifles with scopes and each is different. If you have trouble posting the pictures, I know imfuncity can post anything that you could share with the members. Help us build the Gallery with some new and different pictures of the vintage scopes. Thanks to all of you for making the Remington site a first class site.

Thanks for participating.

jack1853

Here is what Sarge756 had to say about my scope question.

I think the idea of a post to bring the information to the members is great and hope it will get a good conversation going and we can all learn something. Discussions of scopes usually gets people talking. I also look forward to sharing some photos of different applications of the Stith mounts that I have used.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After the War (1st one) scopes were available but they were long tube affairs with external adjustments that were not suited to sporting arms.They had skinny tubes(3/4 inch) with very short eyerelief . Around 1930 the first of the German scopes started hitting our shores. Zeiss made the Zeilklien and Zeilmar that are credited with being the first internal adjustment scopes suitable for sport hunting.Rudolph Noske started his scope business in San Carlo ,Ca about this time .The Noske scope was virtually handmade with Rudolph grinding the lens and making the tubes and mounts.The Noske is credited with being the first internal adjustment scope made in the USA.Problem with these early scopes was the high price.Imagine paying more for the scope than you would the rifle. Along came Bill Weaver and his 330 scope. A 3 X made 1930 or thereabouts.It sold for $7.50. It was a skinny 3/4 tube but did have internal adjustments and you could mount it and go hunting. Scopes started showing up at deer camps more often.That 330 later saw duty on Springfield A4 sniper rifles in the next war. Lyman jumped in with a scope patterned after the Zeiss models.It had a 7/8 inch tube and quality glass from Bausch and Lomb. B&L made the lens for Lyman for years until they figured out this scope business might be something to look into.The Alaskan was/is one of Lyman`s most famous scopes.It was high quality,bigger tube than the Weavers,and came in cheaper than the German scopes.It also did sniper duty on Springfields and Garands.Therein lies the problem for us collectors today.Because of the interest in sniper rifles and the reenactment people the price on 330 Weavers and Alaskans has steadily risen. Really nice Alaskans with the preferred post and crosshair reticle go upwards of 3 Franklins. Less in demand regular crosshair a bit less. Ebay usually has a few listed every week.Another maker, Norman Ford,in Tyler Texas started making the Texan,a scope that was very close to the Alaskan.It also had a 7/8 tube and quality optics. These come up from time to time and would be a good alternative. These early scopes are all of low power when compared to the scopes in use today. They were from 2.5 to 3X .The real benefit is that all of them have very generous eye relief.This was important when mounting the scope on a bolt action rifle that had not had the bolt bent to clear the scope.It would also be a consideration on the Mod 8/81 when using a mount such as the Stith. Even when using other mounts the space on the receiver on the 8/81 and need to leave the ejection port clear from the adjustment turrents usually dictates that the scope be mounted forward.The extra eye relief is needed to have a full field of view in the scope.
You may have surmised I really like the old scopes.Two rifles I try to hunt with at least once every year have old glass and they still work just as good as they did 75 or so years ago.I have a first year Mod 70 in 30-06 fitted with a Zeiss Zeiklein in a Noske sidemount and a Ross 1910 Sporter in 280 Ross with an Alaskan (post reticle) in a Stith Mount.I modified the mount to fit the Ross without drilling any holes and it works very well.Nothing like banging away with something older than everyones Dad or Grandad to get some attention.Its a real kick to show folks they don`t need one of those scopes that can see Mars to kill a deer.

An Alaskan would be a good fit and period correct for your 8 so get on the lookout so you can keep up with Mitch and cover up those holes.

Sarge756

[imfuncity]

As they say on FB "Like". Let's see those scopes and mounts - yes, I'll get my camera out also!

[jack1653]

I checked the Stith Mounts that I recently received. It appears from the instructions that I have two different models. One is called "The Texan" and it looks to be close to a one inch mount. The other two are called "The Alaskan" and the mounts look about 3/4". Just goes to show how very little I know about this subject. Now I guess I have to look for two different scopes if I am going to use both mounts. Oh well, I didn't need two of the same kind, not that it would matter.

Be prepared Mitch for some pictures of the scoped rifles. I have to wait until this tropical storm clears us so I can get some sunshine to get good pictures.

jack1653

[81police]

I'll bite on this one and will post some scoped rifle pics this week Great topic btw!

[Sarge756]

Jack,
The description of the mounts you gave should be a 7/8 inch mount for the Alaskan.The one inch mount is possible for a Texan.Norman Ford made a "Texan" model with a one inch tube. I think old Norman was pretty good at copying what was successful in the market. His one inch tube model is very similar to the Weaver K series scopes in 2.5 and 3X. The "Texan" built with a 7/8 tube is patterned after Lyman`s Alaskan. That being said, don`t let the "copy of" bother you.The Texans are fine scopes and in my opinion ,of the same or better quality than the scopes they competed with. I`ve included a photo of an Alaskan, K3 Weaver and a Texan 2 1/2/ X side by side for comparison. These would be suitable for your Stith mounts.
One item that I didn`t mention earlier, that can be a factor with scoping a model 8/81 with Stith mounts is the lack of windage adjustment. This is only relative when using old glass such as those discussed.Prior to the late 50`s or so scopes did not have permanent centered reticles.When the scope was zeroed it was possible to end up with the crosshairs far from center .In some cases on the extreme edge of the field of view.This is why Redfield,Leupold and others designed mounts that had windage adjustments built into the rear mount. If needed with elevation, either a shim or filing of the front base would correct that. Stith made rear bases for several rifles;Savage 99,Mod 70,Rem 721 that were windage adjustable.I have never seen a set for Mod 8/81 that had this feature.
When the first Stith mount for Mitch arrived there was a moment of disappointment.What had been advertised as a 7/8 mount for an Alaskan was in fact a one incher. I swapped out the one inch front tube with an extra I had in 7/8 and made a shim for the rear mount to fit an Alaskan. I told Mitch at the time that if he ran into the problem at zero with the crosshairs on his Alaskan being out of whack ,that the shim I made could possibly be altered to shift the rear of the scope and give some windage adjustment.In that event having a one inch mount for his Alaskan would turn out to be a benefit rather than a detraction.Just throwing that idea out for someone that may have had the crosshair centering problem.
I`ll try to put together a few photos of some different applications of Stith mounts on other rifles I have. They are examples of methods to mount a scope on a collectable firearm without drilling a bunch of nasty holes in it. Stand by Imfuncity, will get them up soon. Joe

[jack1653]

Joe,

I'll have to take a look at the instructions to see what I have. I will make a copy of each instruction sheet and post them so every one can see what we are talking about. This should be a challenge!

Jack

[Sarge756]

Excuse the photo size of the Ross rifle.At least the detail can be seen. The scope is a Lyman Alaskan in a modified Stith mount.The front mount is a 7/8 Stith tube with a rear mount made from a cutdown Redfield base and Redfield 7/8 ring. The rear base is attached to a filler piece that is dovetailed into the bridge.Upward pressure when the base is tightened keeps it firmly in place. With this method no holes were drilled into the rifles receiver. This rifle is in 280 Ross, a cartridge that was designed at the turn of the century.The ballistics are on a par with the Remington 7mm Magnum.
The Remington 8 and 81 show two methods of scoping these rifles. The Mod 8 in 35 Rem has a Texan in a Stith one inch mount.This is the mount that Mitch spotted as having only four holes instead of five.It was modified to fit an 8 and works well.The scope is far enough forward that the adjustment turrents are in the normal position and it can clear the ejection port. This is not always the case, as with the 81 in 300 Sav pictured with it. The Weaver V4.5 has to be mounted with the adjustment turrents rotated 45 degrees to clear the port. This means only regular crosshair and duplex reticles must be used.This can cause confusion at zero when side to side becomes up and down and vice versa.
The Model 70 Winchester in 30Govt06 has a Zeiss Zeiklien in a Noske sidemount.The turrents are turned as mentioned but the rifle was zeroed when I got it and I`ve never messed with them.

[jack1653]

Thanks for the pictures, Joe. The old saying that a picture is worth a thousand words certainly applies. You have unique pieces.

jack1653

[Sarge756]

The photo is of a Winchester mod 03 22 Win Auto cal. and a Winchester 63 22 LR cal. Each of them has a period correct scope mounted without drilling holes. A marriage of mounts from Stith and Weaver are used. The 03 has a Weaver 29S scope with a 3/4 Stith tube for the front and a Weaver "B" mount used for the rear.The 63 has a Weaver A2.8 scope and uses the same type mounts. Since both of these rifles were original and had never been drilled I couldn`t bring myself to put a hole in them. Modern chemistry to the rescue.The Weaver mounts were glued on. I did this several years ago and both rifles have been used.The 63 shooting 22 long rifles is used much more than the 03 in 22 Win Auto.The cost of the 22 Win auto ammo is up to a buck a round so I don`t shoot it very often.The mounts are still solidly attached.
While I would not suggest this for a rifle with high recoil it seems to work just fine with a 22. The glue that I used has also saved me on some other projects .It is available at Coolchem.com . It is called cyanopoxy and comes in various sized kits. I will warn you that it is a bit pricey but in my opinion well worth it.It is sort of super glue and epoxy glue combined.
Hope this gives some ideas that can be used to save some other original collectables before the drill pokes holes in them.
Joe

[sighthound]

Nothing wrong with using space age compounds for mounting scopes and other work, am sure older guys would have used latest tools for their work. For example when relining barrels the new liner was soldered in, nowdays some smiths, at least, use epoxy compounds to fix the liner in place which is much easier and faster and in a 38-55 and a 22 LR I have work fine. Jerry

[Sarge756]

Jerry,Thanks for the approval on the glue solution.I agree that using modern materials as a kink is the way to go. I have an 1885 Winchester 22 short with a bad bore. Have considered getting a liner from Brownells, using their accraglas method for the liner and chambering it in 22LR. Did you do the work on yours or did someone else do it? I don`t have anyone close that does relining so it will probably end up being a DIY.

[DWalt]

A few years back, I was testing several adhesives for performance in bonding aluminum to steel. There are several that have extremely strong bond strength. One good one was Resinlab AR 4305 which is a two-part type. It was found virtually impossible to separate the metal pieces after curing, by any degree of force. I even used a hammer and chisel. Another good one was Loctite 426. Unfortunately these are expensive industrial adhesives with short shelf lives (in fact they must be stored refrigerated) and you can't buy them at your local Home Depot. They, and many others, are available from Ellsworth Adhesives in Houston. There may be even newer and better adhesives now. Ellsworth can make recommendations, but again, these adhesives are not made for consumer use and are not cheap.

Regarding scopes, for general shooting I have gone to the red dot types, My poor eyes rule out open sights for any precision shooting (but I can still use peep sights OK), but red dots work great for me. No magnification (not exactly true, as there are some low magnification red dots available), but they can't be beat for general use in any lighting condition, and can be used for rifle and handgun. even shotguns. Also no focusing and eye relief problems. The military has gone to using red dots, but theirs (such as EOTECH) are priced far beyond my budget, but are extremely rugged for combat use. The cheap ones (Tasco, etc) work fine for me. I think a red dot sight on a suitable mount to fit on the top rear receiver of a M8/81 with adhesives would be a great combination. Lots of metal area there for a strong adhesive bond, and no screw holes. I have found that many people don't know this, but red dot sights are made for shooting with both eyes open, another benefit for hunting.

[sighthound]

Sarge, My two rifles were both done by Roy Buckley, phone 208-459-0978 who lives near me in Idaho. He does excellent work and has over 50 years experience and I wholeheartedly recommend his services from general repair to custom rifle building. My 38-55 is an 1885 Hiwall and the 22 is a Stevens 44. Jerry

[Sarge756]

Dewalt,Thanks for the information on the AR 4305.From your experience and the information at the Ellsworth site it looks like this is worth looking into. The cost is about the same as the cyanopoxy kit so I plan to order some. One kit was $14.00 but they have a $50 minimum on web orders.Guess I will be getting 4 kits.Should be a lifetime supply and some to share. My Misses will just have to put up with more little bottles in the freezer.The cyanopoxy is stored there now.
Red dots are a great alternative and really come in to their own with a moving target. The idea of having one center of bore on an 8/81 sounds appealing. Keeping both eyes open when shooting was one of the hardest things for me to train folks to do.Old habits die hard and most people learned them early with a daisy or their first open sight 22. Easiest people to train were those that had never fired a gun.
Jerry, that must be the 38-55 High wall you are shooting in the photo you sent.Thanks for the information and phone #. I priced out the supplies; chamber reamer,chamber guage, liner,liner pilot drill etc and it adds up pretty fast. I have a couple other 22`s that could stand a reline. If I can line up a couple more to do, it would justify the expense for tools and materials.I will give your source a call and weigh it against placing the order with Brownells.I think they have added a new wing with the $ I`ve sent them so far. Of course we all know , Ya can`t have too many tools. Joe

[imfuncity]

Sill question time: What difference does it make, drilling holes for a mount or permanently gluing a sight on to a rifle? Either way it is changed forever, no longer original.

I have found the couch rather comfortable after years of living by, "Any job worth doing, is only worth doing if I can buy a new tool."

[DWalt]

Partially true. While the high-strength adhesives are difficult to remove, they are all organic, therefore, enough heat applied will release them if necessary. While it may damage the finish, there are no threaded holes to fill in, and the metal surface integrity is not compromised. I wouldn't recommend it for use on a collector-grade gun where metal finish is a concern, but I would have no hesitation about using adhesive bonding on a shooter-grade gun.

A DIY on installing a .22 barrel rifled liner is a piece of cake. Back in the late 50s I did it on a Stevens rolling block .22 single shot rifle ("Crack Shot"). At that time, Numrich sold everything you needed, and the liners came chambered for .22. The only thing I had to have done was to get a drill bit brazed onto a long rod to bore out the old barrel full length, using an electric hand drill. .22 barrels are usually soft and easy to drill. Everything else involved just a little file work. I think Numrich even included good instructions in how to do it. Numrich (Gun Parts, Inc.) may even still sell liners, wouldn't hurt to check. I used epoxy as a binder (I think it was included from Numrich), but solder is not too difficult to use. Might be more difficult in a caliber other than .22 RF, especially if chambering is needed.

[Sarge756]

Dewalt, You answered as I would have.Ditto.Other than a possible marring of the finish from the glue no harm is done.Holes are there forever.I just finished repairing a 99 Savage that had four misaligned holes for a scope mount.After the filing ,polishing and rebluing a little discoloration from glue would have been welcome. The liners that Brownells have are from "Reds" and are not chambered.The cost of the liner is reasonable.The tools are what runs the cost up. I have no hesitation about a DIY and will probably go that route.I`ve got two junk barrels to practice with before I start drilling for keeps. I`ll check with Numrich and compare the outlay.

Glad Mitch jumped in. Imfuncity, Where are those photos of your 5 holer 8`s and the new mounts ?
Joe

[DWalt]

If you've ever seen the AR-7 type semi-auto survival rifles in .22 LR, their barrels are all steel liners inside of an aluminum outer casing. I have two of them, one of them which demonstrates excellent grouping, one not so good.

What I was mainly doing with the AR 4305 adhesive was attaching aluminum spacer blocks inside the fronts of hundreds of M16 magazines to allow use of blank cartridges while preventing insertion of live rounds. A safety thing. It worked very well, and was much faster and far less labor intensive than riveting, which was the previously-used method. The testing done was to prove that they would not come loose. Never had an incident in which that happened.

[81police]

This was sent to me from fellow 8/81 collector Tom Ramsey. It is Bill Hillis's Model 8F that as you can see used a special scope mounting system that did not require drilling/tapping of the receiver. If anyone has information about this make of scope mounting system I would greatly appreciate anything you have.

[Sarge756]

Cam, Now we are getting somewhere. What a neat setup and no holes drilled to do it. Identification of the scope will be difficult. Using the photo to aproximate, it looks like a 20 inch tube of 3/4 inch diameter.This could be any number of scopes made during the early 1900`s. The end caps don`t look right for a Winchester so I`m going with either a Stevens or Malcolm.I`d like to imagine that with this being a Model F that the owner would have opted for the Cadillac of scopes of the day,a Malcolm.
The mount appears to be fastened at the front with a band around the barrel jacket and then, one would assume ,it utilizes the existing rear sight screws for a bracket at the rear.Whether this was a designed mount for a Mod 8 or the work of a good smith I wouldn`t know.
After the "Trials rifle" auction ended Jerry and I were in communication.I have a Malcolm scope that I`m considering using with an early Mod 8. His trials and full length target stocks caught my attention. Had the thought;Was there ever a Model 8 Sniper rifle ? First idea to mount the scope was to use a front Stith base and Lyman receiver sight base at he rear as platforms for the target blocks. This post and photo are causing me to rethink that idea. Would always vote for a no-drill solution.
Thanks for the post and photo and hope someone will have more information about it.
Joe
.

[81police]

I dont know whether its ever been done or not, but I always thought an idea would be to make a mount that used the existing bolt carrier latch screw and barrel lock screw holes. The screws would have to be of a special length to accomodate for a shaped mount on the outside of the action but it could probably work.

There is a photograph in the RSA Journal of Bill Hillis's same 8F (as pictured above) and it doesn't have any tapped holes, so I think you're right it used a barrel band up front and the rear sight holes out back.

Model 8 sniper version, now we're talking!

[mr mike]

Been following this thread for a bit. Being a "newbie" I wasn't sure if anything I added was relevant to all you
"pro's" out there.
Wanted to share my experience with scopes on the model 8. I signed up on this site and posted first time on the
welcome wagon on 11 june this year. Under title of "hello, newbie with questions". Theres some photos there of my
1908 model 8 with the scope that it came with. I came by this rifle through an old buddy as the tale on that post goes.

Currently this is the only gun I own. I cleaned it up a bit, got some ammo and eventualy got to shoot it.
All I can say is wow! Strange thing was however, the scope seemed to make the rifle feel odd to me. Like it was out of balance. Even walking with the gun felt awkward. In talking with my friend the former owner, he told me some of the background on the scope. It had been mounted some time in the early 1950's. The scope came out of a Herters catalog,
and was mounted on a modified weaver mount. I spent some time with John Henwoods book " the great Remington model 8"
and noticed that almost no where does one see illustrations of the model 8 with a scope. Mr Henwood didn't really have a lot on them except to say more 81's then 8's had them after World War Two as hunters tastes changed.Anyway after some thought I decided I was going to restore this gun (an 8A standard) back to stock or original. I would get rid of the recoil pad, redo the stock and get rid of the scope.
To make a long story short, I was able to locate a Lyman 1A tang sight and put it away for future use. Then I dismounted the scope and Weaver mount. I'll have to send "Infuncity" a photo to print, but for now you'll have to believe me when
I tell you what I found thirteen holes (13) yup, 13 holes drilled in the reciever under that Weaver mount plate.

Maybe you recall the old black and white TV show, "the life of Reilly" starring William Bendix. If ya do then you remember
how he would exclaim when ever catrastrophe fell, which was often..."what a revoltin' development this is!!"
That was me also.

Reading through this site I came across a post which calls out a gunshop known as old west gunsmith.
Located in Gastonia,N.C. ( www.oldwestgunsmith.com )
I e-mailed them and asked them about welding my reciever and rebluing the rifle.
They thought they could handle it but asked to see the gun first before passing judgement.
After sending them the rifle, they came back with assurances they could handle the job. So as I write
this is where things stand. The remingtons in their shop and I'm waiting. I've seen examples of their work here in my local
community. On older Browning shotgun they restored and a World War Two military M-1 Garand. Mr Chicoine
the gentleman working on my rifle has experience on model eights although he admits they don't come through his shop
often. Its interesting to pass along to those reading this Mr Chicoines remarks after seeing my rifle.
"Whoever did this sure loved drilling holes,huh?" I recall passing back to him that I'd seen some photos on this very site
of at least one other model 8 with the reciever full of holes.

Anyway, with all due respect to those who desire scopes on their old Remingtons, I just gotta quiver.
I don't think these old guns were ever originaly designed with scopes in mind.
Modern so called "black guns" are made with all kinds of "rails" and attaching goodies for laser sights and scopes.
However, as a relatively short range brush gun thats put much meat on the table for over a hundred years
I have mixed feelings about the value of scopes on a model 8. But then again, I'm just a "newbie".
Perhaps space age glues are the thing. As for this old geezer, 73 this year, when I get my gun back,
gonna shoot it, like they did "back in the day", with the tang sights.

[jack1653]

Hey Mr Mike,

What a great story. Thirteen holes has got to be a record number. I have seen several that looked like swiss cheese, but none with that many holes. I'll be anxious to see the refurbished rifle.

I agree with your viewpoint about these rifles were not meant for scopes. I have a couple that I hunt with because my eyes just aren't good enough with bifocals to use the iron sights. They shoot just fine, but they just don't feel like the conventional mounted scopes.

Thanks for your story.

jack1653

[imfuncity]

For Mr Mike, one "hole-ly mess" for sure - is it just me or are there really 14 HOLES!! Thanks for sharing.

P1010148 (2sm).jpg (195.51 KiB) Viewed 21042 times

[81police]

I think I just teared up looking at that picture

[Wildgoose]

This is my first M81. It is a .30 Rem. I was able to afford to buy it as there were "issues" one being the six screw scope mount attached to it. No scope but the mount and rings were there. The rifle is a good accurate shooter and I went to the trouble to find a period scope for it just to make it complete. As a professional welder I was thinking of tig welding the holes and refinishing the rec but decided to keep it the way it came. Its previous owner (I was told the rifle came from an estate sale.) had scratched his initals into it and I knid of felt that it gives the gun some character. When I take it deer hunting it will be kind of a tribute to the old gent who kept it in such good shape so I could enjoy it so many years later. The history of hunting written all over of many of these old rifles in the wear marks and personal modifications is one of the things I find so interesting about them. Like the tiny compass mounted in the stock of my other M81 in 300 Savage. However I would never modify a "straight" example of either an 8 or 81. There are plenty of rifles with "issues" if one wants a scope, butt pad or sling attachments. I find the scope OK to shoot with but much prefer the tang sight set up over the scope. The day may come when the scoped gun becomes a requirment though and I have one on hand now.

[imfuncity]

Nice looking set up, recently got one of those mounts for my 6 holer... now I need to get THAT one together also!