Weak ejection on Model 81 .30 Rem

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cantgrowup
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Weak ejection on Model 81 .30 Rem

Post by cantgrowup » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:03 am

I shot my Model 81 in .30 Rem for the first time the other day and the ejected brass was only going about a foot directly upward and dropping back down on my arm on the shooting table. I realize that the extractor is on the 12 o'clock position and that the ejector is on the 6 o'clock position, and therefore brass should go straight up, but it seems they should go a bit farther up and hopefully off the the side more than they are.

The ejector and spring seem to be okay. Is this just "the nature of the beast" with the Great Models?

kenhwind
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Re: Weak ejection on Model 81 .30 Rem

Post by kenhwind » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:15 am

My first thought would be: Factory ammo or reloads?

Then I would ask if the barrel assembly has been disassembled and cleaned.

Because of the long recoil action of these rifles it takes some energy to operate properly. Dirt old powder and dried up oil can impede the barrel reoiling with enough zest to functionally through out the empty. Weak or moderate reloads can do the same.

I've made up some loads that do what you describe, and I've disassembles some Model 8s that were downright gunky inside.
KEN

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Bandersnatch
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Re: Weak ejection on Model 81 .30 Rem

Post by Bandersnatch » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:16 am

Actually I'd be happy if mine did that. They mostly eject straight up and land on my head.
I am the cat who walks by himself. And all places are alike to me.

cantgrowup
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Re: Weak ejection on Model 81 .30 Rem

Post by cantgrowup » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:24 am

It's probably my anemic hand loads. I used 29.0 gr of IMR 3031 pushing 150 gr Hornady RN (#3035) around 2000 fps. I had already disassembled and thoroughly cleaned the rifle before shooting.

kenhwind
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Re: Weak ejection on Model 81 .30 Rem

Post by kenhwind » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:23 am

My load listing shows 30.5 IMR 3031 for the Hornady 150 RN

Case ejection in these do not seem to be consistent either.

John Browning designed the rifle as a .35 caliber, which uses a 200 grain bullet or a bit heavier. Remington decided that they needed to compete with Winchester on a "heads up" basis and came out with the .25, .30, and .32 Remington.

A thought: Factory loads for the .30 Rem uses a 170 grain bullet.
KEN

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Bandersnatch
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Re: Weak ejection on Model 81 .30 Rem

Post by Bandersnatch » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:44 pm

cantgrowup wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:24 am
It's probably my anemic hand loads. I used 29.0 gr of IMR 3031 pushing 150 gr Hornady RN (#3035) around 2000 fps. I had already disassembled and thoroughly cleaned the rifle before shooting.
Ken Waters' load for this one is 32 gr of 3031 and a 150 gr bullet. Ejection is quite brisk.
I am the cat who walks by himself. And all places are alike to me.

Rifleman
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Re: Weak ejection on Model 81 .30 Rem

Post by Rifleman » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:22 pm

cantgrowup (interesting handle): I thought the same thing regarding height of ejecting empty brass when shooting my first Mod 81 in 300 Savage. I had previously had a combination of feeding and ejection problems with the 81 (post titled 'First Time Shooting Problems 300 Savage 81) and pretty well found the reason why. After fixing and resolving those problems, I had several fired brass stove pipe out of around 60 rounds and thought that the brass weren't ejecting very high. I could sort of see them when firing and it seemed they were only going up 6" or so above the receiver. I posted a question similar to yours "Ejection (Stove piping) With 81 300 Savage". 81Police suggested I video some firing if possible as he advised the 8/81 rifles were not known as ejecting brass as some other auto loaders such as a AR15. I've read here and there of 8/81's not being big brass tossers. All of my ejected brass were either at my feet or just to the right of my feet upon firing. I thought also that I could possibly have had brass falling back into the receiver such as a forum member videoed some time back. Just a hunch, no proof. Video is on UTube and/or on video found on the home page of this forum.

Anyway, had wife video two segments, first one firing three slow shots and two fast shots and a second firing full mag (five shots) as fast as I could pull trigger. Results of video's showed all of the ejecting brass actually going much higher than I thought. With my head in a firing position on the stock, the brass were going way above the height of my head, approx. 12-18" from the receiver on every shot. I did the same with another Mod 81 300 Savage and results were the same. Since posting that post, I haven't had any stove piping with the first 81 I had problems with. Haven't had any problems with the second 81. My handloads were 150 grain Speer SP with 36.0 and 38.0 grains of Varget and same Speer bullet but with 34.0 and 35.0 grains of IMR 3031. Not light loads, nor maximum. All pretty accurate. Video's did show that the brass was ejecting higher than I thought.

chas1949
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Re: Weak ejection on Model 81 .30 Rem

Post by chas1949 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:25 am

I would suggest anemic hand loads had nothing to do with ur issues.
70 years old now and been dragging a model 8 around northern NY woods since I was 14. Back then with my dad and grand dad who also carried M8s. At the end of the day we always unloaded running the mag dry by running the action by hand. Never had any issues with weak ejection.
I would suggest cleaning the chamber with a brass brush chucked in a drill on low speed for a few seconds. This will ensure that the chamber is clean and that brass will pull out of chamber easily and not pull it out of extractor. Also make sure that the extractor is properly adjusted as to hold spent brass long enough for ejector to flip it out of the way for next round to be loaded. Some times the extractor needs to be bent slightly to be hold the brass.

kenhwind
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Re: Weak ejection on Model 81 .30 Rem

Post by kenhwind » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:17 pm

I am inclined to disagree that an anemic load will not cause weak ejection.

When cycling the action to unload the rifle you are only actuating the bolt. When fired the recoil has to operate the entire mechanism, after all it is a recoil operated firearm. If there is not enough inertia from or pressure from a fired round it will not have enough energy to overcome the recoil spring as well as the bolt return spring.

Seems in how I reload I have experienced this myself.
KEN

chas1949
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Re: Weak ejection on Model 81 .30 Rem

Post by chas1949 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:49 pm

I believe you are mistaken. when fired ejection of spent case takes place when the bolt carrier has traveled fully to the rear and been locked back til the barrel has moved back forward. Ejection takes place after the barrel is forward enough to be free of spent round. Bolt carrier is not released til barrel returns to battery and releases bolt lock at which time the bolt carrier returns to lock up with barrel.

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Phyrbird
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Re: Weak ejection on Model 81 .30 Rem

Post by Phyrbird » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:28 pm

I must agree w/ Ken. The physics always apply, unless you go Quantum. Our Ladies operate on recoil momentum not energy, the product of mass & velocity primarily. With some offset due to the acceleration in the barrel of the projectile from rest. I personally have experience with the results. My sabot loads in the 30 Rem will not cycle the action far enough to extract due to the lighter bullet mass, even at lots more velocity.
If one has a marginal load, that just barely catches the bolt stop, there can be squirrelly ejection. (different from extraction) In a gas operated action the operation is drastically different. It's a function of the energy imparted from the pressure in the barrel. That does not apply in recoil operated actions.
However, others are correct too; problems can crop up from ejectors, a weak spring or sticky pin, the extractor can be bent or worn, causing less energetic throw of the empty case. The effect of a broken mag spring reducing the up pressure on the empty will make a difference. Point is there are many factors here, we just gotta find which one.
Phyrbird
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chas1949
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Re: Weak ejection on Model 81 .30 Rem

Post by chas1949 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:01 am

I agree only to the point that the load needs to provide enough energy to recoil barrel/ bolt carrier far enough to lock carrier back and let the barrel separate from carrier. Extraction and ejection occurs when bolt is static and casing is out of the chamber when barrel returns to battery. There is no recoil energy present when unloading weapon by hand, and if all is correct extraction and ejection takes place with a much heavier unfired round when pulled free of the chamber.

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