Model 8 not ejecting

Information on Malfunctions and Care of your Model 8 & 81
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miwoods
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Model 8 not ejecting

Post by miwoods »

I am new to the Model 8, having just purchased a 30 Remington (#59XXX). Rifle is in nice shape; I removed the barrel assembly and took the action apart for cleaning. I cleaned the bore and the bolt assembly, lubricated and reassembled. Action really moves smoothly.

Using new Graf's brass, H-335, and WLR primers I assembled some loads with 110 gr Speer spitzers, 125 gr Sierra, spitzers, and 170 gr Speer flat nose. I single loaded a 110 first. At the shot the action racked,but the bolt was closed after the shot. I pulled the charging handle back and the case ejected. I fired three more, single shot into about 3" at 100 yds; each time ejecting the case manually. My suspicion was the the light bullet did not generate enough recoil to open the action all the way. I next tried the 125 gr bullets with similar results. I finally shot the 170 gr Sierras (three shots into 1.75"), none would open the action all the way to eject the fired case. When I pulled the charging handle back, the cases ejected easily.

It appears that the firing of the cartridge is unable to overcome the spring pressure holding the action closed. Does anyone have any ideas what the problem could be?

Thanks,
miwoods

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Wildgoose
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by Wildgoose »

The combination of a light bullet and a light load my be the issue. Not enough to cycle the action. You didn't mention the powder charge so its a bit hard to tell. If the 170 grain bullet load didn't do the job I would suspect the powder charge. The lightest bullet I use in my rifles are 150 grainers with mid to upper level charges and haven't had any issues.

miwoods
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by miwoods »

Wildgoose wrote:The combination of a light bullet and a light load my be the issue. Not enough to cycle the action. You didn't mention the powder charge so its a bit hard to tell. If the 170 grain bullet load didn't do the job I would suspect the powder charge. The lightest bullet I use in my rifles are 150 grainers with mid to upper level charges and haven't had any issues.
The load was 32 gr H-335 (max in the Hodgdon #25 is 33gr) which should give a velocity in the 2150 fps area. I now suspect the load isn't the issue. Is there something mechanically that could cause this?

miwoods

miwoods
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by miwoods »

OK, more information. I did some Google searching and found a post on this site by Phyrbird suggesting pushing a wood dowel against the end of the barrel to simulate recoil. When I pushed the barrel all the way down, the bolt was 1/4" ot 1/2" short of being far enough back to lock. Something is preventing the barrel from moving far enough back to open the bolt all the way.

Any suggestions on what I should look for?

Thanks,
miwoods

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Phyrbird
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by Phyrbird »

Remember the buffer spring is really stiff. It takes a lot to compress. You might not have applied enough force.
However if someone has replaced a buffer spring it is possible the wrong one is in there. You said it was a 30 Rem, a 35R or a 300 Sav would not operate correctly in a 30 Rem. Watch some of the SlowMo videos of the action working.
There are lots of photos floating around of the rocker that locks the bolt in recoil. It's also possible the back of the rocker is worn or re-shaped. It might not be catching the bolt in recoil. When you pull the bolt back with no rounds in the mag does it catch? That would be a symptom of a worn rocker.
Carl
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miwoods
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by miwoods »

When I pushed the barrel down, it felt like I hit a stop. It was not moving further. When I pull the bolt handle back, it locks every time.

Does this sound like an issue of the two springs that are in the barrel jacket?

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Phyrbird
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by Phyrbird »

None of mine have had this problem so far, except when i fire light weight loads. My sabot rounds for 30 cal don't have the Ohhmph to cycle the action fully. Have you tried near to factory loads? Our Ladies are sensitive to lower power ammo; though most of my reloads are midrange power.
Another possibility could be the barrel sleeve has been disassembled for cleaning and the springs put back out of order or the recoil spring case is in backwards. Does it look like the barrel assy has been opened? These things do matter.
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miwoods
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by miwoods »

The 170 gr load I was using is 1 gr short of book max.

I took some measurements, the barrel can move back in the sleeve 2 11/16", no more. The bolt needs to be pushed back 3.5" to lock. There is something inside the barrel assembly that prevents it from moving back further.

I am pretty sure the action has been re-blued, I'm not sure about the barrel. I see this as an increased possibility that someone has messed with the barrel assembly. What could they have done that would prevent it from moving all the way back? I suspect my next step is to disassemble the barrel. Is there a way to remove the locking nut on the muzzle without the specific spanner wrench? if not, where do I buy the wrench?

miwoods

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Phyrbird
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by Phyrbird »

Suggestions and options:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4606&p=17396&hilit= ... c16#p17396

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3353

The tools being sold recently have dried up, these should do a good job....
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Roger
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by Roger »

Sir,the recoil spring case is probably installed backwards. That would be about the distance difference you have mentioned. Check in John Henwood's book. He addresses this as the most commonly done reassembly issue encountered.
Thanks for your time,
Roger
Roger
raw4555@gmail.com

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Phyrbird
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by Phyrbird »

Thanks, Roger,
You have more experience with snafus of our ladies than I, your suggestion makes a lot of sense. Never had one with the problem....
Worst thing I've had aside from missing parts was a bolt rotated to battery before the action closed. Fixed it with a BIC pen and pulling the bolt back half way. Thay all seem to work right no matter how scruffy they might look. JMB knew his design stuff.
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miwoods
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by miwoods »

Gentlemen,
Thank you for your time and advice! I am going to have a machine shop make a nut type spanner tool for me. The suggestions here, combined with viewing some disassembly videos leads me to suspect the recoil spring case. There is only one way to find out. I will report back after getting the tool made.

miwoods

miwoods
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by miwoods »

Update:
My cousin made a barrel wrench for me :D .

I took the barrel apart and discovered the recoil spring case was correctly installed. I then did some careful measuring. My buffer spring is 2 1/8" long and recoil spring case is 1 5/8" long. The two together are 3 3/4" long. The distance between the assembled barrel nut washer and and the muzzle edge of the barrel jacket plug is 6 3/8". This means that my barrel can only move 2 5/8" backwards. For my bolt to lock, it needs to be pushed back 3.5".

This means my problem is likely one of the following:
The buffer spring and/or recoil spring case are a combined one inch too long
The barrel jacket plug is aprox. 1" too close to the muzzle
Something in my action is incorrect if the bolt has to move 3.5" back to lock

Does anyone have the correct dimensions for these parts for a 30 Rem?

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks, miwoods

ranman
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by ranman »

I had a rifle with similar problems cause by a bent bolt carrier latch. The latch gets bent on the small end and is very hard notice.

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Phyrbird
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by Phyrbird »

Ranman, I hadn't considered that issue. Good potential call. There's a lot of photos floating around of the bolt carrier latch, it might be a good compare.

I would be interested if anyone has experience with barrel jacket plug movement???

MiWoods: I've 2 30Rs, one M8, one M81. When I get some time I'll try to duplicate your measurements. I'm trying to document the dimensions of various springs in the sleeve as I clean things. It's just that dishes, dusting, fall leaves, mower & auto repairs, Xmas shopping, dental visits get in the way. We gotta do things to do things. Got a 25Rem barrel in progress right now.
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miwoods
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by miwoods »

ranman wrote:I had a rifle with similar problems cause by a bent bolt carrier latch. The latch gets bent on the small end and is very hard notice.
I will check this out.

Thank you!

miwoods

miwoods
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by miwoods »

Phyrbird wrote:MiWoods: I've 2 30Rs, one M8, one M81. When I get some time I'll try to duplicate your measurements. I'm trying to document the dimensions of various springs in the sleeve as I clean things. It's just that dishes, dusting, fall leaves, mower & auto repairs, Xmas shopping, dental visits get in the way. We gotta do things to do things. Got a 25Rem barrel in progress right now.
Thanks, Phyrbird!

Could someone measure how far down you can push the barrel into the shroud using a wooden dowel? This will tell me if my barrel has the correct range of movement.

Thank you,
miwoods

miwoods
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by miwoods »

miwoods wrote:Could someone measure how far down you can push the barrel into the shroud using a wooden dowel? This will tell me if my barrel has the correct range of movement.

Thank you,
miwoods
Can someone help me out with this measurement?

Thanks
miwoods

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81police
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by 81police »

total barrel travel should be approx the length of the cartridge, however I doubt you could push the barrel inside the jacket and compress the heavy buffer spring completely by hand. I don't know the exact measurement sorry miwoods.
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miwoods
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by miwoods »

So using a wooden dowel against the muzzle, I should not be able to push the barrel down far enough to lock the bolt back due to the stiffness of the buffer spring?

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Phyrbird
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by Phyrbird »

MW,
I've not had any luck latching back the bolt this way, haven't tried real hard though. It is not likely your barrel plug has moved, the recoil spring case can be backwards, power of loads is a big factor. Sorry I've not made time to pull down a BBl assy to check dimensions yet or done the dowel measurement yet. :oops: Will do the next time I disassemble a 30R barrel. :)
I do agree the Leverevolution powder seems to be a big asset for our various cartridge reloads. All mine so far for 30R have been 3031; but I do know 35R and 300sav like the combination. :geek: Eventually I'm gonna be testing the Leverevolution powder with the new Monoflex Hornady bullets. Will post results.
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miwoods
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by miwoods »

I forgot to post that I checked the bolt carrier latch, and it is in fine shape.

The last load I tired for function was 30 gr of 3031, WLR primers and a 170 gr Sierra flat point. This load is 0.2gr over max for 30-30 in the current Sierra manual. It was not able to push the barrel far enough back to either eject the fired case or lock the bolt.

Does anyone know a smith that is good at diagnostics on a Model 8?

thx,
miwoods

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81police
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by 81police »

have you inspected the action spring which is housed in a tube inside the stock? I remember seeing one once that was bound up and prevented the bolt from making a complete rearward travel.
Cam Woodall
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norm
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by norm »

I checked my model 8 30 caliber. With a cleaning rod in from the muzzle and pushing the whole barrel and bolt assembly back it moves about 2.75 inches. Hard to get a real precise measurement.With the bolt and barrel pushed back that far I can't move it any farther. Pulling on the bolt handle moves the bolt all the way back moves the bolt all the way back and the barrel snaps forward. Careful when you do this. I got a rather painful blood blister when my finger got in the way. Check the ejector. It is spring loaded but might be stuck.

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Phyrbird
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by Phyrbird »

Whupps, I hadn't thought about the ejector. Good call.
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miwoods
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Re: Model 8 not ejecting

Post by miwoods »

Cam, I have had the recoil spring in the butt out and it is working fine.
Norm, sorry about the blister! Your measurement tells me my barrel is moving the correct distance when pushed by hand.
Thanks to both of you gentlemen!

The only possible issue I can see is that an incorrect buffer spring was installed. Any idea how I can confirm that my rifle has a 30 Remington buffer spring?

Thanks
miwoods

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