Rem. 8 Carbine

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81police
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Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 81police »

16" custom carbine, what do y'all think?

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14delta
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 14delta »

I'm sitting here considering the work that went into that, The barrel shroud would'nt be too hard but then the barrel would have to be turned with the extension attached (Not easy)to remove or reduce the taper then threaded and splined for the barrel nut & washer. Definatly the work of a pro.
It really looks good if you did'nt know better you would think it was a factory job. I wonder how it shoots???
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Hardrada55
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by Hardrada55 »

I would wonder "IF" it will shoot, and if it does, will the action cycle correctly. This is a spring loaded barrel jacket we're talking about here. What happened to the springs?
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81police
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 81police »

I'm sitting here considering the work that went into that
well not to get too specific but a marquee tool, burn and dodge tool, and a few minutes of free time on Photoshop :D

I also made a custom "whippet" gun ;) Please excuse the amateur photoshop skills.

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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 14delta »

That would be an easy conversion using photoshop but you need to use a police special with the 15 rd. magazine to start with, Talk about an early assault rifle.
I dont think it would be totaly impossible as a real world project.
The barrel shroud would have to be detached from the receiver extension and shortened six inches then reattached to the extension, If you wanted barrel mounted sights new holes would have to be drilled and the mounting plate put back in. The barrel would have to be cut back six inches and turned to the same dimentions as the end of the stock barrel and then threaded and a spline cut for the barrel nut and washer, which would be about all that was needed.
The only other thing to consider would be how much mass you would lose in shortening the barrel, I would think six inches of barrel might weigh six to eight ounces so you might get away with the stock springs, If not it would be easy to go to stiffer springs. I really think its doable.
The one thing I am sure of is this carbine in 300 savage would be a real handful!!!!!!!
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 2verpsters »

Ok, I'll donate the rifle, who has the shop to do the work. Got an 8 in 25 that is a perfect candidate. Barrel is bad about 1-2 inches from the end. Shortening the barrel shroud is probably a piece of cake, could be accomplished with a hacksaw, file and drill. Fill the rear sight holes like they did for the Trials rifles. Becomes strictly a peep gun. Or, leave the holes, but use one of the Lyman or Marble style flip up sights that dovetail into a base that fits the sight holes. The barrel is a different story, we are going to need a machine shop to do that work. Not sure if there is any contour work that needs to be done, but the cutting and threading would be pretty hard to replicate by hand. Who's the machinist of the group with spare time on their hands?
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 2verpsters »

Ok, did some checking last nite on my 25. Can only take about 5" off of the barrel jacket without getting into the roll stampings. Taking 5" off the back of the jacket would eliminate both rear sight screws and the slug for attaching the for-arm. I like peep sights so no rear sight doesn't bother me. The slug for the for-arm attachment could be soddered/riveted back in place. Forgot that I supply metal to Hart Rifle Barrels here in Syracuse. Talked to them yesterday about this little project, they said bring it over. I think I'm going to try it and see what happens as this gun is worthless the way it shoots, all I can do is look at it and I have enough to just look at already. This would give me a carbine with a 17" barrel and overall length of about 35". Might even help the handling characterisitcs as these old girls are way front heavy anyway. We'll see.
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 81police »

Even if it never functioned properly it would be A) something to post on here for everyone to drool over and B) a great wall hanger/conversation piece.
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 81police »

here's David "Carbine" Williams modified model 8.

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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 35Rem »

Now that is COOL. Congratulations on the build, and Thanks for sharing.
BUT- put your "eyes" on next time you make a video, gotta set a good example. ;)
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by Hardrada55 »

OK, I am officially very impressed. :o How did ya'll do that? I would not have thought that a shootable short barrel conversion of the Model 8 was possible. Really neat gun...drool, drool.
...the right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America..."
- Hubert H. Humphrey, "Gun" magazine, Feb. '60
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 2verpsters »

35Rem: Yeah, forgot them after I got the camera set up. Had them on for the 1st ten rounds, had to make sure my creation worked before making a video. Didn't want any embarassing footage out there, but made a mistake anyway. :oops:

Hardrada 55: If I told you, I have to put you in solitary confinement forever. Just kidding. Actually was rather easy with the right tools and the right guy to run them. A bunch of cutting and re-threading, some cussing thrown in there for good measure, and it was done. It was an easy deal for me as the Mod 8 that I did it to had a split in the barrel very close to the muzzle. Someone had plugged the end with snow or mud and whammo. Bought the gun cheap for parts, but then Cam, Pack, and I cooked up this idea. It really was simple, no internal changes at all. Had to build a couple of specialty tools and you lose the rear sight. Could put it back in but it would be right over the roll stampings. I love peeps so it was no big deal to me.

This one was in 25Rem. Am going to try one in 35Rem next and see if it works for that round. I was worried that I might have to go to a 35 cal buffer spring with my 25Rem conversion to slow things down a bit but it appears that I can leave everything alone. I want to try a 35 cal and see what happens as there are no heavier springs to go to with that caliber. I'd have to figure something else out if the 35 slams the action to hard. My line of thinking was that the loss of barrel length would equate to a loss in muzzle velocity. Then, since I had taken several ounces of weight off of the moving mass, the loss of muzzle velocity would keep the action from recoiling to hard, but hard enough to work. It was a gamble, but I had nothing to lose but a worthless barrel and time, but it seems to work just fine. If the 35Rem conversion works, I may hang out my shingle. :D
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 35Rem »

It's still cool as all get out. Best Idea I can come up with is to go back out and shoot it some more on camera with your glasses on, that way you get to shoot it more, and we get to watch! Cool stuff. Keep us updated on the 35. Should be a stomper!
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by jim81 »

ooo.....oooooo...ooooo.... that's me at the back of the room ....a newbie here....I'm jumping up and down with my hand up ....can I be next .... I have a .300, ...and a couple of ideas .... where do I sign up ..... ????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!

PULEEZE ! ...If you "hang up your shingle" ....I want one. Put me in line right now.
I've been a lurker for quite a while , but I'm here now. I want one of these.
Yeehaw !! :D :D :D
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 2verpsters »

Jim81, let me get my 35Rem version done to see if it works. If it does, I don't see why it wouldn't also work on a 300Sav. I hope you have some meat on your shoulder though, that 300Sav is a kicker with the 22 inch barrel. Might be a handful coming out of a 17" version. My biggest concern is the action working properly. I took the chance with my 25Rem as I had nothing to lose. With the 35Rem, I'm taking a chance that I may end up with a single shot Model 8 carbine. I'm pretty confident that it will work, but I don't have any scientific/engineering reason behind it, just was willing to take a chance. I don't have a 300Sav that I'm willing to sacrifice so if my 35Rem works and you are willing to send me your 300Sav, we'll work out a deal. I'll be able to give it a test run with my 300's action, but I can't give you a guarantee that it will work and once it's done, it's done. No going back.

I'm hoping to have the 35Rem conversion done by the end of the week. I'll post some pics along with another video. Will try to get my commentary picked up by the camera as my 1st video didn't catch much of my voice.
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by jim81 »

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 81police »

I just received my .35Rem carbine barrel assembly in the mail today from Pete (2verpsters) and I'am floored!

The quality of the machine work is absolutely first rate. No scratches or tool marks are present on the barrel shroud or the recrowned surface of the muzzle. The barrel from breech face to muzzle measures exactly 17". I'am planning on doing a full review/comparison (muzzle velocity, etc.) of this carbine vs. a standard model 8 so stay tuned ;) Thanks again Pete!

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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 81police »

For those of you interested in Pete's carbine barrel assembly I did a side by side comparison using one he completed last week in .35Rem and a standard 22". We used a Competition Electronics ProChrono+ chronograph to measure average muzzle velocity from each barrel assembly. As you can see with the loss of 5" of barrel, we were only loosing around 100fps on average. I would say that perceived recoil was a tad bit sharper with the carbine :D I put nearly a box of ammo through the carbine with no malfunctions of any kind.

The weight listed is the barrel assembly without forearm.

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When the stock is finished on the carbine pictures will follow.
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by Viper Spray »

Good info. , thanks!!
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 81police »

Well folks the model 8 carbine project if finally complete. Me, 2verpsters, and Packmule kinda had this idea at the same time to make a semi-recreation of David "Carbine" Williams model 8. The #1 hurdle was the barrel assembly which most of you have already seen was tackled by 2verpsters. Getting into it we were not even certain the rifle would function with 5" of barrel loss, but it does function flawlessly.

As y'all know Carbine Williams inspired both the M1 Carbine and the model 8 carbine. The stock on this rifle has been shortened along with the barrel assembly giving it an overall length of 35 inches (down from 42 inches) with the same length of pull as an M1 Carbine. The rifle weight is now 7.3lbs and the caliber is .35Rem. I'll see about getting a video up soon.

If anyone is interested in creating their own model 8 (or 81) carbine the first step is the barrel assembly. Contact Pete Vershneider (tversch@hotmail.com, 315-591-6639) for the barrel assembly work. As i've stated before the quality of his machine work is absolutely outstanding. Without his initiative this project would not have been possible. Maybe this revamped 1908 Remington will take a whitetail this winter!

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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 35Rem »

I can't wait to see the modified Police 81! ha!

Really cool. Stayin tuned to see critter pics.
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by jim81 »

YES !!!
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by Cozahome »

If anyone couldn't tell by Jim81's reply he is very happy with his new carbine that Pete finished. :lol:
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by Cozahome »

He foams at the mouth already...no telling what he will do when he gets it. Pete and I have talked and I think it would be safer if he sent it to me first. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 2verpsters »

Not sure that is a good idea now, Jim's already threatened to jump in his truck and drive to NY if he has to, just so he get his hands on it. No telling what he might do if I sent it to you 1st instead of him.

He's actually going to just keep foaming at the mouth for a while longer. I am waiting on a Krieger conversion to show up at my door step and Jim wants me to see if I can make him another mag for his rifle. I'm going to see if my mag fits in his gun and if so, whether I can duplicate it on a spare mag. If I can, I'll really have to hang out my shingle. Maybe I can forget about the economy and just work on 8's and 81's. ;)
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by Cozahome »

Hope you can hang out your shingle, would make a lot of us happy. After you told him about the Krieger he got more excited than my Jack Russell Terrier running around. :shock: :lol:
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by jim81 »

woof







:roll:
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by ikeda »

You have the buffer spring, recoil spring, and recoil spring case all inside the jacket. There was room for all that? or did he move the jacket reinforcing ring inside the barrel jacket.
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 2verpsters »

Trade secret buddy old pal.

Just kidding. I'm working the barrel from the muzzle end and the shroud from the receiver end. The reinforcement is a mystery to me, I don't know whether it is a press fit or silver soldered. It seemed easier to do it my way than to try and figure out how to move that within the shroud.

An interesting note, Dennis in the 81 section has a carbine that appears to have all the work done from muzzle end. He bought it off a rack from somewhere and unfortunately does not know any thing about who did the work or how they did it. I wish he was closer to me, I would like to look it over.

Wish I has room in the stable, I like that pistol gripped 35 of yours. Don't need a carbine or 2 done do you? ;) Pete.
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by Behemotosh »

Okay guys, I just saw this. It's raining here today in Kalifornia and I got to surfing the forum...

Absolutely fantastic! Too bad Dad didn't keep the barrel he blew up years ago. It had a walnut sized bulge about 4 inches from the end.

Model 8 Kalashnikov...........

I like to finish on the receiver also. I have a receiver that was in the water for quite some time...Hmmm.

Shoot straight!
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 81police »

Pete's original 25Rem carbine video...

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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by imfuncity »

Way 8-) man!! I want one too, oh why did I get rid of the other 25 :cry: sigh!
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 81police »

About 2 years ago I mentioned I'd do a Model 8 carbine video, well here it is better late than never! The barrel assembly, built by Pete Verschneider, is 17" and the rifle's overall length is 35.5", it's a thumper!

The link below will take you to the video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgczA5W-9b4
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by jack1653 »

Hi 81police,

Well that is a nice looking firearm. It appears that it has a pretty good punch when you compare it to the other video of you shooting my Police Model. I kept waiting for the other 10 rounds!!

When Pete gets my carbine back to me, I'll have to make a competeing video. Well it won't be apple to apples since mine will have the 15 shot POE magazine. That shooting will probably pound this old man.

Regards,

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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 81police »

Oh yeah it's a world of difference between the 30Rem and 35Rem! Just shooting half a box with the carbine gave me a dime sized cherry on my shoulder. I think it might end up getting hunted with this deer season.

Your POE carbine is going to be awesome, I can't wait to see it in action!

Here's a better picture of the little beast,

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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by imfuncity »

I'm a nebbish!! WalMart slip on Limb-Saver... TWO of them, right now! ( :? Can't believe I just bought a 7mm Rem Mag!!)
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by superc »

Hi. New guy here.

Yes, I love it. [Remington are you noticing?] My thought/concern, the recoil is not purely a function of the end escape velocity. It is more about chamber pressure and the initial inertia of the bullet and the bullet's resistance to going down the barrel. The phrase dwell time comes to mind. Gets complicated without any numbers to work with, but I am thinking the bullet going forward is exerting a forward force on the barrel, this at the same time the rearward motion of the case is pushing the action back. Question for the high speed camera guy... In a normal M8/81 has the bullet already left the barrel before the breech is at the rearmost point? If so about how many milliseconds before?

We can use that number to calculate (roughly) how short a barrel can be, before the possibility of the breech unlocking while the bullet is still in the bore. [Borrowing from Ghost Busters, "That would be bad."]

My overall suspicion is even at the new shorter length the bullet is still gone before the breech unlocks. That's good. Going in the other direction, you lost about .6 pounds with the shorter barrel, is that right? That's a lot and it means the barrel assembly slams back that much faster. Accordingly, the delay in the breech unlocking is much shorter (again, a call goes out for the guy with the Pact timer and the high speed camera).

For humans with an auto loader, the faster the breech unlocks after firing the more recoil is perceived. I think the safety margin of breech unlock time is getting thin..

A possible solution for future conversions.... A thicker barrel to put some of the weight back. A heavier gage recoil spring wire.. Maybe both with a larger diameter outer tube?

I don't much care for either patch. I think perhaps the best way of reducing recoil while adding to chamber unlock time (without altering the gun's profile or adding the weight back) would be to borrow an old trick from H&K. Flute the chamber at about a 7 degree angle. The fired brass would look funny, but the safety margin would go way up and your felt recoil should drop 10 to 20 percent. Because some of the energy is now being used to push the cartridge walls into the flutes, the rearward pressure is reduced. That should ease the battering on the action.
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by 81police »

Great observations and thinking superc! I like the insight you bring here. There's definitely a point where the barrel can only be so short before changes in the original design have to be made (ie. heaver barrel/different springs).

The perceived recoil isn't that bad, only slightly more noticeable over a standard length rifle...at least to me. Then again the perception in recoil could also be coming from the 2" shorter stock and hard plastic repro buttplate.

I've kept an eye on the receiver and bolt carrier of mine, no wear and tear there. Before Pete built his first one in 25Rem he was already contemplating using a 35/300 recoil spring & buffer spring if the action did not function. Of course that wasn't necessary and all calibers up to 300sav have been functional.

I always thought the idea of building a registered SBR Model 8 with a 12" barrel would be cool! I do believe function would be a problem at that point, but a long time ago I photoshoped this idea...
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H&K - flute the chamber

Post by imfuncity »

"H&K - flute the chamber at about a 7 degree angle."

Love it that you guys let me hang around and keep absorbing - I've given up on trying to pick it up... after getting it ALL together, ain't gona happen! :o
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by Packmule »

Finally got my carbine out in the woods this past weekend and ran about three boxes through her. Not to shabby for a 1907 circa Model 8. Shot like a champ, tried to get a hog with it but no hog to get......
.

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Re: Rem. 8 Carbine

Post by Bandersnatch »

Want.

Want.

Want want want want want!

Like burning!
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