So I picked up a Model 8... in .308 winchester.

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JerseyLightning
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So I picked up a Model 8... in .308 winchester.

Post by JerseyLightning » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:42 am

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11418839/ ... c-and-r-ok

This exact gun, but I got it locally from somebody else.

Was this a popular conversion? It's the only one I've ever seen.

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Roger
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Re: So I picked up a Model 8... in .308 winchester.

Post by Roger » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:52 am

Sir,I don't know a huge amount about 308 win.,but I do know that it is a little more powerful than 300 savage. The two are similar but definitely not the same pressures,velocities,etc. I suppose that the 300 sav. parts inside a model 8 would function but I have a suspicion that the barrel jacket "bulge" may be the result of some recoil/spring issues. Simply opening up the chamber might allow the use of a .308 cartridge but wouldn't account for the extra recoil and pressures when fired. I would be highly suspicious of this conversion and use caution if firing it. On the other hand, I agree with you that it's the only one i've ever seen also.thanks for your time
Roger
Roger
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S and S HUNTCLUB
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Re: So I picked up a Model 8... in .308 winchester.

Post by S and S HUNTCLUB » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:50 pm

Hello, Here's some information taken from the book "The Great Remington 8 and Model 81 Autoloading Rifles", by John Henwood, Page 233, regarding "Rechambered Rifles".

Judging by the location of the bulge in the barrel jacket, from the pictures I viewed from the original auction listing, when the Oregon seller sold the Model 8 in October of 2012... It appears that the barrel jacket bulge is just forward of the buffer spring. It would be my guess that the original recoil spring case "mushroomed" at its base, from the added force and/or pressures of the .308 WIN. cartridge, being fired with the original 30 Rem. internal barrel components.

The "mushroom" effect of the recoil spring case can also be found on factory chambered rifles, when the recoil spring case is installed "backwards", when the opening for the recoil spring (on the recoil spring case), faces the buffer spring. This can cause a barrel jacket bulge as well. The incorrect installation of the recoil spring case and the "Mushroom" effect, can also cause the internal barrel components to jamb inside the barrel jacket, with the end result leading to your complete bolt carrier assembly being jammed in the rearward position and not allowing the bolt and the barrel to move forward after firing. We have actually experienced this on a Model 8 in 30 Rem., that we purchased and fired on the same day, without disassembling the rifle & we were lucky that it did not bulge the barrel jacket. That was the "first & last time" that we ever fired a newly purchased autoloading rifle, without disassembling the rifle and properly inspecting the rifle prior to shooting the rifle. It was a valuable lessoned learned and one we will never repeat!

My advise to you would be, to disassemble the rifle and make sure that you have at least the 300 Savage internal barrel components present in the rifle, along with the proper bolt and extractor. I would also have a competent gunsmith check that the rechambering was done to spec. Food for thought...One thing to keep in mind is that, the 30 Rem barrel is much thinner than the 300 Savage barrel and the pressures in the .308 WIN. are greater than the 300 Savage caliber.

I'd also think about this.... "Why was a rechambered rifle, with a barrel jacket bulge"???, that was sold a little over a year ago... has found its way back into the market so soon there after.

When its all said & done... if you're comfortable with everything and you still feel the need to fire the rifle, "I'd say a prayer every single time you pulled the trigger & pray that the rifle does not explode in your face and cause injury to you or anyone else!"

The best advise I could give would be, to find an original factory barrel, along with the correct components for the caliber you find and replace everything with the correct components for your caliber of choice and bring the rifle back to "original factory specs" for that caliber!

I'm just giving my honest opinion here. Good Luck with it!

Enjoy Life, Bob @ S and S HUNTCLUB
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Sarge756
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Re: So I picked up a Model 8... in .308 winchester.

Post by Sarge756 » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:11 pm

Bob@S&S , You said all that I was thinking but much better with examples and details. Thanks for that information. My first thought when I read the original post was this was like dropping a 350 chevy rat motor into a VW. I figure that an 81 in 300 Sav is at about the limit of the recoil I`m willing to put up with. I can`t imagine wanting to up the ante to a 308 Win. Just proves the case of the mischief an idle mind can create. Your advice to seek a proper barrel and put things back as they should be is spot on. I`m not opposed to looking at different chamberings for our springpoles but as you pointed out the pressure levels need to be considered. We recently had discussion about another 8 that had been converted to 7.62x39. This would be a practical conversion that would be safe and allow the use of inexpensive ammo. Back in the day when that guy from Arkansas was going to ban everything I laid in a lifetime supply of 7.62.Sure would be great to have the fun of disposing of it through an 8 instead of an SKS.
".......ain't many troubles that a man cain't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."

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Roger
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Re: So I picked up a Model 8... in .308 winchester.

Post by Roger » Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:20 pm

Hey Bob, you said pretty much what I meant,but didn't know exactly how to state it without offending anyone. This is very likely a dangerous situation with these 2 conversions. It's nice to know though, that i'm not the only one here to think this. .308 win. is substantially higher in pressure than any caliber ever put into the m-8 by Remington.
Thanks for your time,
Roger
Roger
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FUGAMI
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Re: So I picked up a Model 8... in .308 winchester.

Post by FUGAMI » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:19 am

Gentleman
I am new so forgive me if I'm outta line. I have read this thread several time with great interest. Am understanding that those of you with lots of knowledge and experience with these rifles are saying that it is unsafe & unwise to rechamber to .308 Winchester. That is my initial impression, or are you saying that it would be unsafe & unwise to do this type of conversion to a Model 8. As I've reread the thread it seems that what is being said is that a Model 81 originally chambered in 300 savage could be rechambered to .308. The primary issues of concern being the recoil spring case and the barrel wall thickness, so with these two parts replaced with fabricated replicas designed to sustain the increase in pressure of a .308 & installed correctly(not backwards) these issues would be addressed and it could be fired safely. As previous stated for another caliber, 300 savage is getting harder to come by for a reasonable price as opposed to .308 w. and even considering reloading the .300 savage brass has begun to be described as "rare" with prices that reflect that category of description. So in essence what I'm asking is do your cautions for this specific rifle extend to what I've described; Model 81/.300 savage, rebarreled to .308 Winchester with all precautionary parts fabricated & replaced and checked to spec by knowledgeable gunsmith?

sighthound
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Re: So I picked up a Model 8... in .308 winchester.

Post by sighthound » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:22 am

There will always be tinkerers and experimenters and this is good as this leads to progress, however, is it really necessary to reinvent the wheel by altering a wheel to something for which it was not intended or designed, am sure Remington designers and engineers tried and tested many ideas and applications before settling on production calibers. From a collectors standpoint I think factory originial configurations are desired. New designs and products are great but from a historical point leave the old guys alone and do something totally new. Jerry

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Phyrbird
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Re: So I picked up a Model 8... in .308 winchester.

Post by Phyrbird » Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:21 pm

This is an interesting dialog. I have some comments:
The Model 8 (& by default M81) were designed at the turn of the last century. the concept of high pressure rounds like the 308 was a pipe dream at the time. :oops: The components; bolt, barrel, bolt recess in the barrel, springs, and receiver were all designed with 30-30 pressures in mind. Typical safety margins of the era were 3/1 at the time. Now JM Browning has a rep for tough reliable designs, he could not foresee failures due to impact stress and fatigue. It didn't become a science till the '40s or '50s.
Now, one could beef up the barrel, improve the springs, (not easy in the case of the buffer spring) but how do you beef up the bolt and receivers? When you increase the effective pressure in this system to 55000 where are you? Almost double :!: :!: This decreases any safety margin to 2/1 or less. :shock: In industry, sometimes engineers will do this to increase productivity and design in inspections to check for the failures I mentioned. How many of us magnaflux our barrels and bolts for stress cracks? How many measure the the chamber pressure of every shot with a built in strain gage?
We can still find 30Rem components for reloading & case forming. We can improve the performance of our favorite rifles with tailored reloads. The 300 Savage can be formed from 308 brass.
Many of us are starting to find spares hard to afford. Most times if a shooter wants a higher performance rifle it's less expensive to buy one of Browning's later products. The BAR comes to mind. 8-) Yeah, a custom barrel, springs, & a beefed up bolt would cost more than $1500. :!: :!: I say spend that money on another favorite rifle :!: Who knows, perhaps we could start another forum folder dedicated to later Browning firearms. :) Yea verily, we could start a jackitis mutation, Browning Firearms a very chronic disease, no cure just not quite fatal, very contagious. :lol:
Phyrbird
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81police
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Re: So I picked up a Model 8... in .308 winchester.

Post by 81police » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:27 am

S and S HUNTCLUB gave a very technical and sound explanation of why the safety of this rifle should be questioned. I also would recommend the owner disassemble the barrel components and carefully inspect them.
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DWalt
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Re: So I picked up a Model 8... in .308 winchester.

Post by DWalt » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:09 am

The .300 Savage is actually the father of the .308/7.62 NATO as the result of the U. S. Army's postwar development programs to develop lighter weapons and ammunition. Ballistically, there is not a great deal of difference between the .300 Savage and the .308. In fact the Army started its search using the .300 Savage cartridge, but decided that its case neck was too short to provide adequate bullet support during use in full automatic weapons. The .308 case is essentially just a .300 Savage case with a longer neck and a few slight dimensional changes.

I hadn't given any thought to rechambering a Model 81 in .300 Savage to .308. It might work, but a major problem is that the .308 has an overall cartridge length (OAL) about .3" greater than that of the .300 Savage. So it would not fit into the magazine without seating the bullet much more deeply. In fact, I cannot see any purpose in making such a conversion, as there is little, if any, to be gained ballistically from doing it.

Regarding availability of .300 Savage ammunition, it's definitely in the "obsolescent" category, and many gun stores and retailers do not stock it. For a reloader, an infinite supply of .300 Savage brass exists. Simply run a .308/7.62 NATO case through a .300 Savage FL sizing die, and cut the neck to the proper length. I've made hundreds of them that way. My only comment is that Federal cases have a neck wall thickness which is too great. Other brands and military brass seem to be OK.

No way I would attempt converting a Model 8 in .30 Rem to a .308, nor would I buy or fire such a converted rifle.

FUGAMI
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Re: So I picked up a Model 8... in .308 winchester.

Post by FUGAMI » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:54 pm

Anyone who might still be looking at this thread, found this auction (see link below) and considered until I saw seller would not sell to buyers in my state, so thought I'd share with you gentleman, in case anyone else is interested. Asking price is a little high, in my opinion, Pictures look decent, and description say was 25 Remington converted to 250 savage. Suppose might be able to be restored to original caliber (Which I suppose would return it to a value justifying asking price), I think I saw someone selling a frontend in 25 Remington on GB a little while back, but can't remember if it sold or not. Just my thoughts

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/12626760/ ... 250-savage

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