Reloading lead bullits for the 30 Remington. Model 8

[muddyau]

Does anyone have a favorite Model 8 load for 30 Remington using lead bullets?. I have 165 GR rn/fp (.309) bullets.
I experimented with 9.0-10.0 grs Unique and found it wouldnt work with this gun. Light loads may be fine for the 30-30 lever action guns but they dont cycle in my Model 8.
I was using 32.5 Gr of 4831 with 170 gr (homemade cut off jacketed bullets) with success. But I would like to use the lower cost lead bullets now.

[DWalt]

Not too difficult to make up Pb bullet loads for .30 Rem that function, and I have done so (I have some postings here about that someplace - repeated below). The issue I had was their truly terrible grouping performance, and I was using commercial hard-cast lead bullets intended for the .30-30. Good luck - maybe you can do better.
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In my earlier posting, I said that I intended to load some lead bullets in .30 Rem, and also some very heavy jacketed bullets (220 grain). I just finished shooting them today, in my 1950 Model 81 and will share my results.

I. Lead bullets - I purchased some 165 grain flat nose lead bullets from Missouri Bullet Company. They are plain base, not gas check, but are sold for hunting use in the .30-30. They are fairly hard, 17 Brinnell. My goal was to find a load that would function reliably in the Model 81 and provide fair accuracy. Alas, it was not to be. I loaded 5 rounds of each variation for velocity and grouping tests. Loading data was not entirely random, as the loads selected came from an amalgamation of Lyman reloading data and also Quickload software. Shooting was done using 5-shot groups from a bench rest and sandbags at 50 yards, using my Chrony chronograph. My sights were the factory M81 open sights. Loads were all held at an OAL of 2.52-2.53" (SAAMI maximum). Bullets were lightly crimped into the crimping groove. In none of these loads did pressure seem high, as there was no hint of primer flattening or cratering around the firing pin depression.

1. 11 grains of Unique. 5 shot average muzzle velocity (actually at about 6 feet) was 1578 ft/sec, with SD of 21 ft/sec. This load would not function the action. I did not shoot this load for grouping, only velocity.
2. 19 grains of 2400. Average muzzle velocity was 1944 ft/sec, with SD of 51 ft/sec. This load functioned the action satisfactorily. Four shots went into a 6.5" group, while the fifth shot went somewhere else, as I couldn't find it.
3. 17 grains of 2400. Average muzzle velocity was 1796 ft/sec, with SD of 22 ft/sec. This load would not function the action. Grouping was terrible, over 12"
4. 12 grains of Herco. Average muzzle velocity was 1837 ft/sec, with a SD of 11 ft/sec. This load would not function the action. Grouping was over 12"
5. 14 grains of H240 (this is an obsolete Hogdon propellant, somewhere in performance between Blue Dot and 2400). Average velocity was 1665 ft/sec with SD of 7 ft/sec. This load would not function the action. Grouping was 10-5/8"
6. 25 grains of Accurate Arms (AA) 2230. Average velocity was 1838 ft/sec, with SD of 111 ft/sec (yes, 111). This load functioned the action satisfactorily. Grouping was over 12".
7. 25 grains of AA 2460. Average velocity was 1859 ft/sec with SD of 29 ft/sec. This load functioned the action satisfactorily. Grouping was over 12"
8. 23 grains of AA 2015. Average velocity was 1778 ft/sec with SD of 19 ft/sec. This load functioned the action satisfactorily. Grouping was over 12"
9. 26 grains of H4198. Average velocity was 2089 ft/sec, with SD of 45 ft/sec. This load functioned the action satisfactorily. Grouping was over 12"

Conclusion: This experiment resulted in lead bullet velocities ranging from 1578 ft/sec to 2089 ft/sec. To get reliable functioning, a velocity minimum of about 1900 ft/sec is required. No load tested had satisfactory grouping qualities, good only for making noise on New Years eve or maybe shooting cattle in the head at a slaughterhouse. Gas check lead bullets might perform better, but I don't know. My previous experience with GC'd lead .30 bullets many years ago in a .30-'06 didn't work out well in the grouping department either. I don't think the poor grouping performance has anything to do with my barrel condition, as it is pristine. Lower velocities might improve grouping, but that turns the Model 81 into a straight pull bolt action repeater.

II. 220 grain RN FMJ bullets. I have a good supply of .30 caliber 220 grain RN FMJ military bullets which I believe were used in the .30-40 Krag or maybe the .30-'03 Springfield. They mike 0.307" in diameter. My main concern with the 220 grain bullet was stability in the 1:12" rifling twist rate of the Model 81. My calculations indicated that stability was right on the borderline at expected velocities (a bit of useful information - long bullets require a tighter rifling twist to keep them going point forward than do shorter ones). As no loading data is available for such heavy bullets in the .30 Remington or the .30-30, I used my Quickload software to come up with a modest load. Quickload said that I could go as high as 26 grains of IMR 3031 without exceeding the maximum chamber pressure. I had no IMR 3031, but I do have Hercules HiVel #2, which is balistically very similar. Therefore I made two 5-round cartridge sets, one with 22 grains of HiVel #2 and one with 23 grains. OAL was kept at 2.52-2.53". This required seating the bullet very deeply. Even so, there was plenty of room in the case for the powder without compressing it (Quickload calculates that also).
Results for the 220 grain FMJ loads:

1. 22 grains of HV#2. Average velocity was 1436 ft/sec, with SD of 25 ft/sec. This load functioned the action satisfactorily. Three shots went point first into a 1.25" group (50 yards), while the other two shots were 2" apart but about 4" to the lower left of the first group. These two bullet holes were elongated, indicating bullet yawing, therefore instability.
2. 23 grains of HV#2. Average velocity was 1508 ft/sec with a SD of 21 ft/sec. This load functioned the action satisfactorily. All bullets went point first into a 2-7/8" group that was mainly horizontal. There was no evidence of yawing from the appearance of the bullet holes. Not too bad, better than I have been able to get with 150 grain jacketed RN bullets in the Model 81, which was about 3.5".

Conclusion: The 220 grain bullets performed better in the .30 Remington than my expectations. It seems that increasing the velocity slightly by one additional grain of HiVel#2 may have prevented yawing, at least at 50 yards. There is, I think, room for improvement in velocity (and stability) by increasing the propellant charge a little more while remaining within safe working pressures. Again, there were no indications of excessive pressures from observation of the fired primers. Also, recoil wasn't at all objectionable. If you need to use your Model 8/81 on elephant and cape buffalo, this is a good load to start with.

My standard disclaimer: I don't recommend your duplicating any of these loads and they are presented for entertainment purposes only.

[Blastattack]

Very interesting tests indeed. Getting cast bullets to shoot well is an art-form. A friend of mine makes barrels (and damn good ones at that) that handle cast bullets spectacularly well. On a good day, some of the best ASSRA (American/Alberta Single Shot Rifle Association) members can plot ten of them in a 1" circle at 100 yards using one of his barrels.

If you need to use your Model 8/81 on elephant and cape buffalo, this is a good load to start with.

That was my first thought. Who the heck needs 375 H&H or a .700 Nitro when you can have a .30 Remington! Autoloader no less!

[DWalt]

In fact Teddy Roosevelt took along a Model 8 (in .35 Rem) on his 1909 African expedition. See: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1260

[muddyau]

Blastattack. Your friend makes barrels for the Model 8 Remington?

[Blastattack]

Blastattack. Your friend makes barrels for the Model 8 Remington?

Not exactly. He makes barrels that excel at accurately launching cast bullets (and exceptionally accurate standard bullets) downrange into tiny holes. He did say that it would be fairly straightforward to change the barrel on a Model 8. No more complex than a Model 70 CRF or a Mauser. The only hard part is the muzzle thread, which is pretty simple, and contouring the feed-ramp.

[muddyau]

What would one of these barrels cost (for him to make)?

[Blastattack]

What would one of these barrels cost (for him to make)?

A rough blank will set you back $300 (CM/SS, up to a max of 32" finished length), contoured is ~$400. He usually charges $600 (all in, though no bluing) to re-barrel a Remington 700. I'm guessing that is would end up costing around $700, once you add in the muzzle threads and extractor groove, though he would likely leave the feed-ramp to the owner. Without having the whole gun, and ammo to test (which he doesn't do), carving the ramp would be difficult. Keep in mind, I/he is located in Canada, so that must be factored in.

Give him a call and see what he can do for you. His name is Ron Smith and can be called at 1-403-631-2405, 9am to 6pm Mountain Standard Time.

[aumudrun]

I did find that the bullet configuration does make a difference in the Model 8, 30 Remington. (Using 32.5gr H4831). I had been using Sierra 170gr. FN Spitzer boat tails with poor accuracy. Lucky to get a group of 12" at 25 yds.
I ran out of these and made some Nosler 170gr. FN Nosler Spizer bullets. I was able to shoot a 1.5" group at 25 yds.

I will get to the lead bullets and see if I can work up a load to hit something.

[DWalt]

H4831 is much too slow in burning rate to be efficient for use in a small capacity case such as the .30 Remington. Faster propellants such as 3031 and 4895 (or their ball powder equivalents) will perform much better. Even faster propellants would probably work better when using lead bullets (2400, IMR 4198, etc.) Use lead bullet loading data given in manuals for the .30-30 Winchester as a starting point. The older loading manuals always lumped the .30-30 and .30 Remington data together. In light of my abysmal experience with using lead bullets in the .30 Rem, I would like to see some loads that group well, as I have hundreds of .30 lead bullets I'd like to be able to shoot up.

[texassako]

I am just starting to get into cast rifle boolits and plan to try some in my .32 and .35 Rems. You might want to check out the Castboolits forum. Quite a bit different than jacketed with more variables, even the die brand and bullet seating method can screw things up. In my case, I was accidently swaging down my bullets for a Krag when seating them and throwing accuracy out the window. Problem with these is you need close to full power loads to get the recoil for operation.

[DWalt]

The Lyman cast bullet handbook contains a wealth of information about bullet casting and reloading cast bullets, and provides a huge amount of reloading data to boot. I don't know if it is still published, as mine is probably over 20 years old.

I never got into bullet casting. Too labor intensive, too time-consuming, and too much capital investment required. Is much easier to just buy them.

[olskool]

i don't have a model 8 in 30 i have a 32 rem. in a model 8 but i do have a 30 rem in a model 14 carbine and it is a real shooter with blc2 cast or jackets.

[texassako]

I was looking for some load info on a different obsolete round, but this popped up in the search for some reason. Unverified and to be taken with a grain of salt, but may be a powder that will cycle and have some accuracy with cast: http://reloadersnest.com/unverified_det ... 83&ID=2861

[DWalt]

I would think using 4320 in that loading might be OK. 4320 is slower in burning rate (that's actually not the correct term, but I'll use it) than 4895, so the MV would probably be a bit below 2000 fps. Results might be better with a gas check bullet.

One problem that's often mentioned regarding cast bullets is that the bullet design sometimes affects performance in a particular gun, and there are lots of design variables, such as nose shape and number of grease grooves. Also, the hardness of the lead alloy used will make a difference. Harder lead is considered better at higher velocities as it won't tend to strip in the rifling.

[muddyau]

One thing about the Model 8 that has bit me twice now is. The barrel will come unthreaded. Found this while trying to get some lead bullit load going. The gun was shooting about a foot low at 25 yds. While cleaning it after shooting I saw the gap in the barrel/reciever. From now on i will try to check it before shooting. Of coarse I am paranoid about over tighting every thing on this gun.

[Roger]

The take down lever should only have to be hand tightened. But put some hand pressure on it, you shouldn't harm it by cranking it down with your hand. If it still comes loose then try some semi -permanent locktite on it. Your accuracy should improve once it stays tight. Keep us posted.
Thanks for your time
Roger

[imfuncity]

I'm wondering if we are talking about the same thing. If the entire barrel assembly is coming loose then the takedown lever does need to be tightened and determined why it comes loose but (without pictures)...
It sounds to me like the barrel-jacket-head pin has come out, an issue that came up awhile back, and something I think you will want to address before doing any more shooting. Here is a thread with some great pictures by Wildgoose viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2055&p=6542&hilit= ... 4334#p6542
This should help you sort out what I'm talking about and/or what is the real issue (a search on here will bring up more info on the pin and replacement, plus some really ugly fixes). Keep us posted - we love before and after pictures.

[aumudrun]

I have given up on getting accurate lead bullets loads for my M8. I loaded/shot 165gr RN/FP (.309) with 29.5 gr 4320. They produced a shot gun pattern about 12" dia. (This was the same results with 4831.)
I checked using my jacked bullet load and got a 1" pattern. So it wasnt a rifle problem.
I did learn something important for us experimenters: ONLY LOAD ONE ROUND AT A TIME WHILE YOU ARE BUILDING UP TO A LOAD INORDER TO DETERMINE AT WHAT POINT THE RIFLE WILL RECYCLE. If you don't your rifle may keep the expended case while trying to load another round. It is rather difficult to get the rifle apart after this debauckle.
I have 450, Meister 30-30 165 gr (.309) lead bullets for sale. $45 plus shipping.

[texassako]

I am kind of disappointed it did not work out for you since I was thinking of trying some cast in my .32. Oh well, one less project to put on the back burner for a rainy day.