Wood Spacer

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jack1653
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Wood Spacer

Post by jack1653 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:00 am

Hey Guys,

I am in the process of preparing a Model 8 25-35 for a project. I wanted to tear the gun down and clean all the internals before I send the rifle off for the conversion. To the best of my knowledge, I don't think the rifle had ever been taken apart and it took a lot of penetrating "Twister" to loosen everything. It was filthy and gummed up with all the residue that you can imagine. I removed the barrel assembly and was taking the components out of the jacket when I found something that I had not seen before. I had all kinds of difficulty in getting the recoil spring case out of the jacket because of a dent in the jacket. By the way, does anyone have a tool for getting dents out of the jacket? I was finally successsful and got the parts out of the jacket. I don't know if any of you have seen anything similar but I wanted to share it with all of you.

What followed the recoil spring case, (normally is the buffer spring), was a milled oak spacer with an embedded split metal washer on the end that rests against the ring in the barrel jacket. On another very early rifle I had seen the split washer and wondered why it was behind the buffer spring. I kept it and still have it. The oak spacer is 1-9/16" in length and 7/8" in diameter. The tollerances were so close to the jacket diameter, That I had some difficulty in getting it out of the jacket.

I took some pictures and sent the pictures to 81police so he could post them for me.

Regards,

jack1653

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81police
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by 81police » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:20 am

Jack's pictures.

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Rem8&81
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by Rem8&81 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:21 pm

Jack, I wish I could tell you that your wooden spacer was indeed a factory spacer found only in rare very early 25-35 rifles, but I can't. There is absolutely no way that gun left the factory with that chunk of wood as a factory specified part. I am in Ilion NY currently at the Remington factory in the achive room where the original spec or proof models for many of the early Remington guns of that era are kept. The one for the model 8 is in the archive room. These are modeled master parts kept in wooden cases which were originally made as the standard for which all manufactured production guns had to match to meet standards. During manufacturing they would randomly pull parts out of production to check to make sure the specifications matched to exacting tolerances the proof models. In the original cased model for the model 8 is the correct spring that even the very first production gun off the line had to match. Therefore, there was no wood spacer and never was. Remember, we are talking about a 20th century rifle and an actual production rifle, not a 1800's prototype. Also, the 25-35's/25's were the last caliber put into production with the 35 caliber guns leading the way. They certainly would have had it figured out by the time the 25's came out even if there was some thought that the earliest guns may have had a wooden spacer. I believe a picture of the cased proof parts is shown in Henwood's book with the correct spacer. I believe you have an example of someone's attempt to replace a lost or broken part with something they could produce on their own. Athough, I have never heard of this part breaking as it is extremely ridged and strong, I suppose it could happen. However, your wooden spacer was more likely a Billy Bob replacement when he lost the correct spring spacer. I believe the only reason the guns still functioned properly with a wood spacer instead of the proper spring is because the spring is so ridged that it acts essentially like a spacer. Thanks for sharing as it is interesting.
[color=#004000]COREY CREAMER[/color]

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jack1653
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by jack1653 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:48 pm

Hey Corey,

I was sure hoping that you would see this posting and offer an explanation. Thanks a million for the response. I just couldn't believe that it was an original part, but one never knows. Who ever the "Billy Bob" was certainly took the time to mill the part to such exact tolerances. I wonder how he figured out this adaption would work given the rigidity. The rifle had obviously been used a lot given the dirty condition that it was in. I have no idea as to when the barrel assembly had been taken down, but it was a real chore getting it apart. I am already searching for the correct spring buffer and that sould not be too difficult. IF anyone out there has one, Please give me a shout.

The rifle is going to be converted to a FSMR by "circlebranch" in Arizona. It is period correct and within a hundred digits of the one featured in Henwood's book on page 115. Bob does some great wood work and he is excellent in replicating the hardware for the rifle. I have the proper Krag site and that wasn't easy to find. My good friend sighthound came through for me on the sight.

I hope you have a productive time in Ilion. Please be sure to share any interesting information about these rifles. I will be waiting for a report. Thanks again, Corey. Give my best to your Dad and Brian.

Kindest Regards,

Jack

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jack1653
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by jack1653 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:58 pm

Hey Guys,

I have found another rifle with the wood spacer. It is identical to the other one posted above. This rifle is also a model 8 25-35 with a serial number 15 digits higher than the other rifle. Both rifles are from 1909. I sent the pictures to 81police for posting. 81police and I were wondering if any of the readers have found similar spacers.

I will be checking some of my other rifles in the same time frame to see if I can find some more. I know that Corey indicated that he didn't think Remington would send a rifle out of the factory with a chunk of wood in it, but it appears they may have done it twice. We will be waiting for the comments.

Regards,

jack1653

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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by Sarge756 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:19 am

Jack,
This is just further proof that when working on old guns the terms "never and always" do not apply. Will be interested to see how many more wood spacers turn up. Can`t imagine two different smiths coming up with an identical part unless those two 25`s had been in the same shop. Very interesting.
Joe
".......ain't many troubles that a man cain't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."

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jack1653
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by jack1653 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:39 am

Hey Sarge756,

What I find strange is I don't think either one of these rifles had ever been torn down and cleaned, Both were very difficult to get torn down and were filthy on the inside. I had to work very hard to get the barrel nuts and jacket nuts off of the guns. I even applied heat to finally get them to turn loose. There was so much build up of oil and grease that neither had rusted and they cleaned up very well.

I plan on getting some other 25-35's out and tear them down to satisfy my curiosity. I don't always tear down the rifles when I get them and I get into a backlog of cleaning. I'll just have to make time and check these out.

Regards,

jack1653

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81police
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by 81police » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:12 pm

Very peculiar Jack! What are the odds of this coincidence? We could speculate all day about it but one things for sure, the two wood spacer "assemblies" look nearly identical. My father has a 25-35Rem marked early 8, I may have to check it out.
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Roger
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by Roger » Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:28 pm

Hey Jack,
It's great to hear from you on the forum. This is an interesting development in this dilema. I only have one 25/35 m-8 and it's a little later production for this caliber marking. It's a 14,000 series rifle. I did have it apart to clean and lube it . After I acquired it, and it doesn't have a wooden spacer in it. It'll be pretty cool though to find out as much as we can about these 2 rifles. Do you think that there's any chance that they could have both been in the same gunsmith's shop at one time or another? I can't wait to here more. Thanks for your time,
Roger
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jack1653
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by jack1653 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:46 am

Hey Roger,

It took a little bit of record reviewing to answer your question. One of the rifles came from the New Port News, Virginia area and the other came from the Arkansas area. Both gentleman told me the rifles had been purchased from other rifle owners years ago in their respective areas. I doubt that the original owners were in the same proximity but have no way of knowing for certain.

This is one of the frustrating things about collecting older guns. There is very seldom any history or stories that can be passed on. I always try to get previous owners history but it is difficult when you buy from auctions or gun stores. Oh well, you can't have everything.

Regards,

Jack

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Roger
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by Roger » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:38 pm

Hey jack,
Was this one of the rifles from our friend Joe in Virginia? I'm just curious cause i'm sure it doesn't affect the outcome of this dilema. Boy don't we wish these old warhorses could talk!! Anyways, maybe someday we'll get an answer to this question.
Thanks again,
Roger
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81police
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by 81police » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:00 am

Jack's really onto something here. He checked another rifle, this time an 8 "D" grade, marked "25-35Rem" #130XX which also has the wood spacer.

We have a rifle #113XX marked "25-35Rem" which I will check also, very curious now :)
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Roger
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by Roger » Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:19 pm

Boy,is this becoming harder to figure or what. Once again, my 25/35 had no spacer, but is later production 14,000 series. I did believe, before ,that the first 2 rifles might have been in the same repair shop or something similar to that. Now I'm starting to really wonder.
Thanks,
Roger
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jack1653
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by jack1653 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:06 pm

Hey Roger,

This search is getting more interesting. To answer your last question about it being our friend, the answer is yes, it was from Joe. Joe had indicated that he had bought his rifles over a fifty year period from going to gun shows in the area in which he lived.

I sent 81police my latest find to day and he posted it. I had three more rifles to check and I sent Cameron the following email.

Hey Cameron,

I finished taking down 3 more 25-35's. Two of them had the steel buffer springs. The third one was a model 8 D grade and it had neither a wood spacer nor a steel buffer spring!! I could see that there was something in the jacket, but I could not get it to move. It was metal on both ends. I was able to measure the "ring" that is inside of the barrel jacket with another jacket and found that there is a difference in distance from the muzzle to the internal ring. The distance from the receiver end of the jacket to the internal ring measured the same distance on both jackets but there was a 3/4 inch shorter distance in the barrel jacket that had no spacer or buffer spring. The spring was the same length as the one I was comparing it to. This rifle had been well used but it appeared to have never been taken apart for cleaning. I thoroughly cleaned it and put it back together as it was when I tore it down. I have to assume that the gun functioned okay without the parts but wonder what the recoil would have been like.

Regards,

Jack

I have a few more to look through before I give up. :o It has been fun trying to find these oddities. As you can probably tell, I don't always tear the guns down when I get them. :shock: I usually will give them a rub down unless they show a lot of build up in the receiver. I try and refrain from buying beaters unless I am looking for a parts rifle and therefore they are put away until I feel like tearing them down. I may have to change this practice :D

Regards,

Jack

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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by ROBOPUMP » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:26 pm

I guess it is my turn to through in another soup bone into the pot. I have two model 8,s in 25 REM, but newer serial numbers. Serial no. 35161(1914) has all the parts in the barrel jacket that I expected and the buffer spring is 2.25" long. However, serial no. 20533(1910) has what looked like a buffer spring that had been cut and ground down to 1.75" long and had two of the split flat washers. One washer was behind the buffer spring and one in front. Neither of these rifles have a repair date code on them. Who said no model 8's were made the same. Now I am wondering if other calibers have some mods in the barrel jacket.

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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by ROBOPUMP » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:45 pm

Another thought came to mind. The split flat washers in my rifle look to be exactly like Jack's. Where else could they come from besides the factory? It would be too much of a coincidence.

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Roger
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by Roger » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:00 pm

Hey,Rob,
I tend to agree that it's too weird to be a coincidence. But 2 members here have said that it probably didn't come from Remington . I don't know what to believe.
Roger
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jack1653
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by jack1653 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:07 pm

I have found the split washers in all calibers including the 300 savage. They are not present in all rifles, but they do appear from time to time. I tend to agree with ROBOPUMP when he says they had to come from the factory. The ones that I have found have always been next to the ring that is in the barrel jacket. The exception has been the wood spacers which has two of the split rings one on each end of the oak spacer.

Regards,

jack1653

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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by ROBOPUMP » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:16 pm

Please let us know the length of the wood spacers. As I stated, the one with the washers had a buffer spring that is 1.75" long.

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jack1653
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by jack1653 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:20 pm

Give me a couple of days. I have put all the rifles back together and have a couple of other "honey-do" projects to do. :lol: :lol:
Regards,

Jack

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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by Old Bull » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:05 am

I know this is an old post but I'm a new member and upon taking apart an early 25-35 in 11,XXX range (1908), I also found an oak spacer instead of a buffer spring. I did not however find a split washer behind it rather just the wood spacer against the internal stop and then the spring cage and spring. The barrel washer was also missing. Upon researching a proper buffer spring I came upon this thread about wood spacers, so it would appear to me that this was a factory item on early 25-35s. The owner has had the rifle for a long time and said it fired well when they last shot it years ago. It also was very dirty inside and had not been cleaned in a long time if ever. Fortunately I saved the spacer as my inclination was to pitch it. Upon closer examination it is very well made with smooth inside and outside walls. The ends are square and show the evidence of the impact of recoil but are not deformed. It measures 1 1/2" long and 7/8" OD. I was looking for a proper buffer spring but upon finding this thread I think I'll just reinstall it.
Very interesting rifle.
Klaus

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81police
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by 81police » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:48 am

Quite a few rifles, from different owners, across different years all with similar oak spacers instead of buffer springs. Very interesting.
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uhjohnson
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by uhjohnson » Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:27 pm

I hope i am not offending anyone by resurrecting this old thread but i don't think it has been answered. I have been reading many threads about the different springs used on the 8/81's and found this one very interesting. In another thread someone mentioned the 25 buffer spring could be compressed by squeezing. My feeling is the 25 does not need a buffer spring, the recoil spring in the stock is stout enough to absorb the recoil and by using the wood the gun was cheaper to manufacture. Now, why was the spacer hollowed and not solid, maybe there was some Henry Ford thinking going on at Remington and a hollowed oak tube was coming into the factory as a handle for something and it happened to have the correct outside diameter or Remington specified the handle to be the size they needed to fit loose enough in the jacket and only had to be cut to length. Now for the washer, if the wood spacer split the washer prevented the wood from shearing and causing a jam, why was the washer cut , i don't know. Just my thoughts
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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by curdog » Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:45 pm

I believe the wood plug would have to be hollow so the barrel can go through to the muzzle.
I have seen the "squeezable" buffer spring on a 1911 production Model 8, which I believe was unaltered.
The wood plug must be very early in production.

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Re: Wood Spacer

Post by uhjohnson » Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:56 pm

I can't believe I didn't pick up on that
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