Ammunition Question ...

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rem81auto
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Ammunition Question ...

Post by rem81auto »

I bought at last weeks gun show a clean full box of Remington Kleanbore 30 Rem. shells. The shells are 160 gr " Metal Cased ". I have never run across a box like this ... what was their purpose and are they considered a scarce shell to find. tks Dennis
Last edited by rem81auto on Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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81police
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Re: Ammunition Question ...

Post by 81police »

I don't know about their scarcity, but when the 30Rem was introduced as the 30-30Rem the first load manufactured was a 160gr. "metal cased". As far as I can tell from Tom Ramsey's ammo page, this load was produced by Remington up until the early 1960's. (http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com/?page_id=332) I still haven't finished uploading all the photographs for this page :?

There is a white Remington box, which according to his research was made from 1950-1961, and was intended for police or guard use (picture below courtesy of Tom).
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Hardrada55
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Re: Ammunition Question ...

Post by Hardrada55 »

We need a real expert to really chime in here, but my general impression is that these were primarily for law enforcement purposes.
...the right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America..."
- Hubert H. Humphrey, "Gun" magazine, Feb. '60

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81police
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Re: Ammunition Question ...

Post by 81police »

We do need an ammo guru Hardrada55. Factory ammo is an area I know very little about apart from what Tom Ramsey has graciously given us. Maybe somebody out there can enlighten us.
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rem81auto
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Re: Ammunition Question ...

Post by rem81auto »

Here's a few pics of the ammo we are discussing.
Image

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Hardrada55
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Re: Ammunition Question ...

Post by Hardrada55 »

From what I understand, a late Remington collector from New Jersey had these and supposedly he bought them from the FBI years ago. These are 160 grain metal covered.... are they not? I don't know who got them after he passed, but I remember they did sell.

Image
...the right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America..."
- Hubert H. Humphrey, "Gun" magazine, Feb. '60

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rem81auto
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Re: Ammunition Question ...

Post by rem81auto »

Hardrada55,
Looks like the same ammo as mine. tks for the additional info. Dennis

DWalt
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Re: Ammunition Question ...

Post by DWalt »

I can tell you a little. Plain white Remington boxes with FMJ bullets are known in several calibers, including .351 WSL, .30-30, and .35 Rem, in addition to .30 Rem. Perhaps not coincidentally, rifles in those calibers were also used by many LE agencies and by prisons back before the M16 types became popular for LE use in the post-Vietnam era. I understand such white box ammunition was headstamped "REM-UMC" dating it prior to the early 1960s when the Remington headstamp was changed to "R-P" However, no reason that the R-P headstamp and commercial boxes with FMJ ammo could not be found also. If it has the Bridgeport address, that ended about 1970, when Remington's ammunition production was moved to Lonoke AR.

My guess (and just a guess) is the FMJ loads were not intended for sporting use as they do not have expanding bullets, therefore most probably for LE/prison use. A bit more information from those that know more than I is that at one time, and maybe still, there was/is some Federal regulation that requires prisons to use FMJ non-expanding bullets, and that white boxes and FMJ loads were supplied under contract by both Winchester and Remington for LE and prison use in typical calibers of the time, mainly .30-30, .35 Rem, .30 Rem, .351 WSL, and even .25-35 and .401 WSL.

Oh, another thing regarding dating - the 2330 index code is post-WWII, starting in 1947. Pre-war loadings used a different number system, usually starting with the letter R. If the box does not have the "Keep Out of the Reach of Children" legend, it would be dated 1963 or earlier. So by headstamp and box markings, one could get a fair idea of date of manufacture. Certainly post-1946, could be later depending on box and headstamp markings. If there is an alphanumeric stamping somewhere on the box, like on an inside end flap, post it as it can be dated from that.

While it's an interesting box, I doubt that it is all that rare. Nonetheless, I'd like to have one.

texassako
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Re: Ammunition Question ...

Post by texassako »

If you think that may be a little different, how about reloading them? I collect old reloading stuff in the calibers I reload for and have 2 boxes of old Remington-UMC .32 caliber metal cased 170 grain bullets. Interesting but not sure who would want to reload a FMJ bullet in this calibers, especially when these are flat point and specifically say for Winchester and Marlin Special rifles. FMJ lever action reloads, for cost conscious law enforcement :D .
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DWalt
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Re: Ammunition Question ...

Post by DWalt »

There are some other possible uses for FMJ bullets. At one time, earlier in the 20th century, it was considered good hunting practice to carry a few rounds lightly loaded with FMJ bullets to use as close-up finishing-off shots, the purpose being to minimize meat damage or hide damage. Such ammunition could be purchased.

In one of my postings early this year, I related that the most accurate .30 Rem load I came up with in my M81 used the .30 Carbine 110 grain GI FMJ-RN bullet. I haven't (yet) tried a similar load in my ,300 Savage. I also had pretty good accuracy in the M81 with 220 grain FMJ-RN bullets made for use in the .30-40 Krag. Low velocity, but probably awesome penetration. That bullet has a cupro-nickel jacket, noted for causing metal fouling. But that is not a problem at velocities less than 2000 f/s, and mine were about 1600 f/s. I did not get any metal fouling after firing about 20 shots. Again, I have not tried a similar load in .300 Savage, only with the .30 Rem.

DWalt
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Re: Ammunition Question ...

Post by DWalt »

Well, I went to a gun show today, and on one of the tables were four boxes of the Remington white-box .30 Remington ammunition (160 grain RN-FMJ) with a Bridgeport address, as previously posted by 81police. All cases had R-P headstamps, which, along with the Bridgeport address, would indicate manufacture sometime in the 1960's. Further, there is no child warning, which would suggest the early 1960s. The guy that had them didn't know anything about their source or purpose. He thought they were "military." So the mystery remains. Anyway, I went home with two of the four boxes. I can always shoot them, as I didn't pay that much ($25/box).

A little unusual, as for the first time there were no M8s or M81s to be seen. There were a great many Browning A5 humpback shotguns, however. A few would have been real buys for anyone interested in them.

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