T’is the season when a man's heart turns to ... duh, gunshows and/or browsing (when there are no gunshows nearby). Plus it is 20 out, bit nippy in ye ole shop.
Noticed a couple of interesting ones while fireside:
Perfect companion for the 8/81, IMHO; he’s right, it does feel good in the hand (better then the 03 & 08 Colts) plus it is thinner for that back pocket (where Patton carried one) and it is still very reliable - one of my treasures.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =210202308
I do like it when they have a true auction, opening with “guts”; and it’s a 25 with a tang sight!
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =210815539
Temptations
Temptations
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
Re: Temptations
The 51 is a magnificent pistol - I have two of them, different variations, both in .380. They were also made in .32, also in two variations, but of all those I have seen over the years, none were .32. I don't think there was ever a better pocket pistol, even to this day. I shoot mine little, but I don't ever remember having a malfunction with either. You can keep the SIGs, Rugers, Walthers, HKs, whatever. I'll keep my 51s. I ran across another 51 in .380 by accident last week, but the owner did not want to sell.
Patton did, in fact, have a Remington 51 which was a present from a friend who had a used one sent back to the factory for refinishing. I believe I heard it's in the Patton Museum at Fort Knox. There was also a version of the 51 in .45 ACP that was almost adopted by the U. S. Navy, but that did not happen.
Patton did, in fact, have a Remington 51 which was a present from a friend who had a used one sent back to the factory for refinishing. I believe I heard it's in the Patton Museum at Fort Knox. There was also a version of the 51 in .45 ACP that was almost adopted by the U. S. Navy, but that did not happen.
Re: Temptations
DWalt
Very interesting for sure. I was thinking of getting involved in this auction but I already have one, now you tell me there are variations...
perhaps I should rethink on this. Also, I was not aware of the 45 version, must be very few of those. Thanks for sharing,
My 51 is a beater but after replacing the barrel - finding a spare barrel was a real challenge!; now it is a fine, straight shooter plus it does not sting my hand like the 03 & 08 Colts. That said, my Colt MKIV Gov. does not sting my hand either plus one has to try real hard to make it miss the target! Speaking of 380's, I had a chance to get a Savage a year or so back, have kicked myself ever since for passing on it, understand it was a sweet shooter too.
Very interesting for sure. I was thinking of getting involved in this auction but I already have one, now you tell me there are variations...
perhaps I should rethink on this. Also, I was not aware of the 45 version, must be very few of those. Thanks for sharing,My 51 is a beater but after replacing the barrel - finding a spare barrel was a real challenge!; now it is a fine, straight shooter plus it does not sting my hand like the 03 & 08 Colts. That said, my Colt MKIV Gov. does not sting my hand either plus one has to try real hard to make it miss the target! Speaking of 380's, I had a chance to get a Savage a year or so back, have kicked myself ever since for passing on it, understand it was a sweet shooter too.
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
Re: Temptations
Yes, there are four variations of the Remington 51, 2 in .380 and 2 in .32 (actually three, if you count a variation in a .32 barrel caliber marking). The difference is visible principally in the type of slide serrations. The 51 has a somewhat unusual action, and it is not a blowback as most other .32s and .380s are. It is actually a (mostly) locked breech design in which a breechblock unlocks as the slide moves to the rear. The breechblock is a separate piece which is not part of the slide. It moves back slightly when fired and its rear portion locks into a recess in the receiver. However, enough momentum has been transferred to the slide to keep it moving to the rear, causing the breech block to disengage from the receiver and move rearward along with the slide. It has often been observed that a mechanism of this complexity is not actually needed for a .32 or .380. But it works well. And of course it did work for the .45 ACP version (which preceded the Model 51).
Good luck on finding the .45 version (Model 53). I believe only a few evaluation models were made for the Navy during the WWI period. I guess the Navy brass eventually decided that the Model 1911 was good enough, given the expense and logistical difficulties of introducing a new pistol into their supply systems. I have never seen one of the Remington .45s, only pictures.
I also have a couple of the Savage .32 pocket pistols, and they are nice. There are considerably more variations of the early Savage pocket pistols in both .32 and .380 than for the Model 51. And there was a Savage.45 in the competition for a new service pistol when the Colt .45 was adopted in 1911. Like the Remington, the Savage is also not a true blowback design, but sort of a hesitation blowback that uses an axially-rotating barrel lock. Workmanship on the Savage pocket pistols is like what you would find on a Swiss watch. On the unusual occasions when I carry, I carry one of the Savage .32s.
Comment on Patton's Model 51:
Patton’s Remington 51
In late 1943 Major General Kenyon A. Joyce visited Patton at his headquarters in Sicily. He saw that Patton was wearing a revolver and suggested he should have an automatic pistol. Joyce tried to get his brother-in-law to obtain a Remington 51 and send it to him to give to Patton, but apparently the brother-in-law was unable to locate one. So when Joyce returned to the U.S. he contacted Roy C. Swan of Remington to see if he could obtain one. Swan located a used one in Denver and had it refurbished at the Remington Factory. The gun was engraved “To George Patton / From his shooting partner of many years / Kenyon Joyce.”
Patton had the standard grips replaced with wooden ones with three ivory stars inset. There are a number of photographs of him wearing the Remington: the three stars stand out clearly in old black and white photographs. When he was promoted in 1945 Patton had new four-star grips made. This is the gun he wore for the rest of the war, as well as after he returned to the States.
Good luck on finding the .45 version (Model 53). I believe only a few evaluation models were made for the Navy during the WWI period. I guess the Navy brass eventually decided that the Model 1911 was good enough, given the expense and logistical difficulties of introducing a new pistol into their supply systems. I have never seen one of the Remington .45s, only pictures.
I also have a couple of the Savage .32 pocket pistols, and they are nice. There are considerably more variations of the early Savage pocket pistols in both .32 and .380 than for the Model 51. And there was a Savage.45 in the competition for a new service pistol when the Colt .45 was adopted in 1911. Like the Remington, the Savage is also not a true blowback design, but sort of a hesitation blowback that uses an axially-rotating barrel lock. Workmanship on the Savage pocket pistols is like what you would find on a Swiss watch. On the unusual occasions when I carry, I carry one of the Savage .32s.
Comment on Patton's Model 51:
Patton’s Remington 51
In late 1943 Major General Kenyon A. Joyce visited Patton at his headquarters in Sicily. He saw that Patton was wearing a revolver and suggested he should have an automatic pistol. Joyce tried to get his brother-in-law to obtain a Remington 51 and send it to him to give to Patton, but apparently the brother-in-law was unable to locate one. So when Joyce returned to the U.S. he contacted Roy C. Swan of Remington to see if he could obtain one. Swan located a used one in Denver and had it refurbished at the Remington Factory. The gun was engraved “To George Patton / From his shooting partner of many years / Kenyon Joyce.”
Patton had the standard grips replaced with wooden ones with three ivory stars inset. There are a number of photographs of him wearing the Remington: the three stars stand out clearly in old black and white photographs. When he was promoted in 1945 Patton had new four-star grips made. This is the gun he wore for the rest of the war, as well as after he returned to the States.
Re: Temptations
Way-cool!! Thanks. I'm always a sucker for "the story" - "Too bad there isn't a story to go along with this rifle but for a small fee I can make one up for you!"
I'm not a collector, the M53 is one of those things that I would never be able to afford but I want to know about; if someone says something or I happen to see one I won't do something dumb and pass it up thinking "Bubba's been here"!!
I have read that Patton carried the M51 in his back pocket, while carrying revolvers on his hips: an SAA Peacemaker and the new 357.
I'm not a collector, the M53 is one of those things that I would never be able to afford but I want to know about; if someone says something or I happen to see one I won't do something dumb and pass it up thinking "Bubba's been here"!!
I have read that Patton carried the M51 in his back pocket, while carrying revolvers on his hips: an SAA Peacemaker and the new 357.
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
Re: Temptations
Patton rarely carried more than one gun at any time. The most used was his Colt SAA which he bought in 1916. The other revolver, less carried, was a first-model S&W .357, which he bought in 1935. In the latter part of WWII he usually carried a pocket pistol in a belted holster, either a Colt .32 ACP or the Remington 51 in .380 ACP. There is dispute over which one of those he carried most, majority opinion being it was mainly the Colt .32. I haven't seen any indications that he ever carried any guns in his back pocket. He (allegedly) occasionally carried a Colt Detective Special in a front pocket holster. But there is debate over that also.
Re: Temptations
Someone is going to wave the OFF TOPIC flag at us, but guns and history doesn't get much more fun then that! 
I got the info regarding the "back pocket M51" form a guy who works at a gun shop, his grandfather served with and knew Patton - maybe so maybe not?
A few more interesting notes regarding my favorite General:
Pictures of his guns taken by a guy visiting the museum at Ft. Knox:
http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/73728- ... -guns.html
Very detailed and convincing article re. Patton and his guns,
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin ... W-Revolver
Why Patton carried two guns?
Stanley P. Hirshon's biography General Patton, published in 2002 by Harper Collins, contains Patton's explanation to his friend, General Kenyon A. Joyce, of exactly why he carried two handguns instead of just one. It is well known to those who've studied Patton's life that when he was a young man, he was part of General Pershing's "Punitive Expedition" to Mexico hunting Pancho Villa.
On May 14, 1914, Patton came under fire for the first time in his life. He had led a caravan of three automobiles to buy food for the troops when he came upon a band of Villistas. As the latter attempted to flee on horseback, a gunfight took place between the Americans and the Mexicans. Patton was armed with his privately owned Colt SAA .45 revolver, carried in the usual fashion with the hammer down on an empty chamber. In the course of the encounter, he emptied the weapon.
He would later say in a letter to his father, "I fired back five times with my new pistol and one of them ducked back into the house. I found out later that this was Cardenes and that I had hit both he and his horse."
That encounter occurred at approximately 20 yards. Another opponent came much closer on horseback, about 10 paces, and Patton deliberately shot the horse. Animal and rider went down, and when the latter stood back up, a volley from other American soldiers cut him down.
George Patton had drawn his first blood, but in the course of the firefight he had also found out what it was like to be shot at and have nothing to shoot back with. He would later explain to General Joyce why that experience made him a firm believer in carrying a backup handgun.
Writes biographer Hirshon, "Patton related to Joyce that his attachment to two ivory-handled revolvers stemmed from the incident. During the fray, he had had to stop and reload his six-shooter. While he did, three shots just missed his head. Henceforth, in times of danger, he preferred to wear two Colt Frontier-model .45-caliber revolvers."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... 103381587/
I got the info regarding the "back pocket M51" form a guy who works at a gun shop, his grandfather served with and knew Patton - maybe so maybe not?
A few more interesting notes regarding my favorite General:
Pictures of his guns taken by a guy visiting the museum at Ft. Knox:
http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/73728- ... -guns.html
Very detailed and convincing article re. Patton and his guns,
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin ... W-Revolver
Why Patton carried two guns?
Stanley P. Hirshon's biography General Patton, published in 2002 by Harper Collins, contains Patton's explanation to his friend, General Kenyon A. Joyce, of exactly why he carried two handguns instead of just one. It is well known to those who've studied Patton's life that when he was a young man, he was part of General Pershing's "Punitive Expedition" to Mexico hunting Pancho Villa.
On May 14, 1914, Patton came under fire for the first time in his life. He had led a caravan of three automobiles to buy food for the troops when he came upon a band of Villistas. As the latter attempted to flee on horseback, a gunfight took place between the Americans and the Mexicans. Patton was armed with his privately owned Colt SAA .45 revolver, carried in the usual fashion with the hammer down on an empty chamber. In the course of the encounter, he emptied the weapon.
He would later say in a letter to his father, "I fired back five times with my new pistol and one of them ducked back into the house. I found out later that this was Cardenes and that I had hit both he and his horse."
That encounter occurred at approximately 20 yards. Another opponent came much closer on horseback, about 10 paces, and Patton deliberately shot the horse. Animal and rider went down, and when the latter stood back up, a volley from other American soldiers cut him down.
George Patton had drawn his first blood, but in the course of the firefight he had also found out what it was like to be shot at and have nothing to shoot back with. He would later explain to General Joyce why that experience made him a firm believer in carrying a backup handgun.
Writes biographer Hirshon, "Patton related to Joyce that his attachment to two ivory-handled revolvers stemmed from the incident. During the fray, he had had to stop and reload his six-shooter. While he did, three shots just missed his head. Henceforth, in times of danger, he preferred to wear two Colt Frontier-model .45-caliber revolvers."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... 103381587/
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
Re: Temptations
It didn't happen quite that way. First, the battle was in late May of 1916, not 1914. Patton was sent by Pershing to surrounding villages to buy corn. There were three automobiles on the mission, and in addition to Patton, there were 10 soldiers and four civilians. Patton had both his Colt SAA and a rifle. At Saltillo, three mounted and armed Mexicans rode through a gate and attacked. Apparently a number of the soldiers were firing at the Mexicans, along with Patton, who fired five shots with the Colt, hitting one horse and wounding one Mexican in his arm. Patton ducked around a corner to reload the Colt, and when he came back out, he encountered another mounted Mexican, and shot that Mexican's horse with the Colt. Using the Colt, Patton and several soldiers fired into the dismounted Mexican from 10 yards away, killing him. The previously wounded mounted Mexican took off on foot, and was shot from about 100 yards by Patton and three soldiers, all using rifles. Patton fired three times with his rifle. The third mounted Mexican, who was by now on foot, was killed by the soldiers. Looks like Patton's score was 2 horses, and assists on two dead Mexicans. There's much more tho the story, but that was the shooting part. The three bodies were strapped to the cars and delivered to Pershing. Patton kept one of the saddles as a souvenir and apparently sent it to his father.
I have a lot of pictures of Patton. All show him with only one gun (either the Colt or a holstered pocket pistol), or no guns. There are probably a great many other pictures which may or may not show him with more than one gun. I just don't have them.
I have a lot of pictures of Patton. All show him with only one gun (either the Colt or a holstered pocket pistol), or no guns. There are probably a great many other pictures which may or may not show him with more than one gun. I just don't have them.
Re: Temptations
Thanks, love it!!
What is your favorite bio's/books on Patton? I like "Patton: Ordeal and Triumph" by Ladislas Farago (his secretary).
What is your favorite bio's/books on Patton? I like "Patton: Ordeal and Triumph" by Ladislas Farago (his secretary).
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine