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Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:25 pm
by cantgrowup
I just bought a 1929 Model 8 in .30 Rem and am taking it apart to clean and inspect before shooting. I had trouble getting the barrel out of the shroud because its threads were hung up on the barrel nut washer. The little bump on the inside of the barrel nut washer was not lined up with the groove in the barrel threads. I was eventually able to rotate the washer so that the bump lined up with the groove. Now that I have it apart, I can see where the washer will no longer stay aligned with the thread groove once I reassemble and fire the gun and will rotate back off center on top of the two flattened threads. What do you guys recommend? I was thinking about "chasing the threads" with a die to raise the flattened ones, but don't know what size thread die to use.

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Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:50 pm
by cantgrowup
Here's a pic showing the position of the washer when it rotates counterclockwise on top of those two rear flattened threads. The groove is at 1 o'clock and you can just see the washer bulge at 12 o'clock. Once it is in that position, it will not allow the washer to be easily removed. I need to figure out the best way for the washer to stay in the thread groove.

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Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:46 pm
by chas1949
Is it possible that it was put together with a 35/300 washer that has a larger ID

Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:00 pm
by Phyrbird
HUHNH :!: :!:
Chas you may be right, the above photo does show an unusual clearance. Any body got Dims on this difference??

Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:46 pm
by Rifleman
Sometime prior to April of 2018 I read somewhere off the web where someone had posted the thread pitch of the barrel threads and also the screw sizes and thread pitch of all the screws and tapped holes on Mod 8 and 81's. I had put the info on my computer favorite's for future reference. Due to a nasty storm with a lot of lighting (in April 2018) our electricity went on and off three times in a matter of a few seconds, our older computer tower couldn't handle the surges even with a surge protector. Had to get a new tower, info on it was able to be downloaded on new tower, but all of the favorites I had saved were lost. After your first post 'cantgrowup', I searched 'high and low' for that web post, but couldn't find it. Looked in Henwoods book also with no results. That info I originally viewed is out there somewhere in cyber space, waiting to be found. I'll keep looking. The barrel threads and washer dimensions do look a little off.

Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:03 am
by chas1949
washer dims
35/300, ID .6135
25,.30,.32 ID .5520

35/300 .0615 larger

Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:25 am
by cantgrowup
I was hoping that may be the issue, but my washer ID measures 0.555 +/-, so I guess it actually is the .30 Rem washer.

Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:03 am
by chas1949
Another possibility is nut way over tightened at some point. The washer appears to have fine notches is the nut the same. There were coarse and fine of both nut and washer

Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:40 pm
by cantgrowup
The barrel nut is .983" in length and has 25 teeth (although the Henwood book says 24... and I counted them several times and came up with 25 each time :o ). The barrel nut washer appears to have many teeth, so maybe the two are not matched.

How far down should the barrel nut be tightened on these rifles? On all my other Model 8/81 rifles, I merely tightened until they stopped (but didn't put any excess force after they stop). Should that not be the right way to assemble them?

My barrel nut will not rotate on the barrel threads for the entire length of the groove, except for the very back two threads where they have been flattened for about 1/4" "circumfrentially". The washer will rotate counterclockwise onto this flat area and becomes wedged on the barrel.

I don't know how those two threads got flattened, but they need to be raised again if possible.

Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:10 pm
by chas1949
I have 25teeth on coarse ones and 50 on fine ones. The fine barrel nut is 1.02 +_ long while coarse ones I have are 1.25 and 1.0 +_ long. After looking again at picture I believe the nut may have forced the bump on the washer back on the threads when removed at some point. With fine notches on washer and coarse teeth on nut this might have been possible.

Should be able to size barrel thread dims with a thread pitch gage and caliper for thread diameter. I use a square thread file to restore buggered threads. These have 4 different tpi thread restore sizes on each end.

Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:22 pm
by cantgrowup
I have a thread file somewhere. I will see if the threads match up with any teeth on the file and slowly chase the thread back.

Does anyone have a picture of what the coarse washer teeth look like to compare against my washer? And if that is the case, then I will have to find a coarse teeth washer for sale.

Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:38 pm
by chas1949
Or a fine toothed barrel nut. I believe Bob's gun parts might be able to help you. There is a nut,washer and bushing on EBay but priced way to much.

Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:32 pm
by cantgrowup
Well.... I believe that the barrel threads are 24 to the inch according to my thread file, but I don't think I shall try to repair the flattened threads with it. I will contact local gun smiths to see if they have proper thread dies to restore the damaged threads. If anyone knows the proper thread die dimensions for the .30 Rem barrel threads, I sure would appreciate it. In any case, it looks like it'll be a while before this old gun shoots again.

Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:09 pm
by chas1949
Possibly the little nub on the inside of the washer is not fitting tight enough in grove. If you had access to a tig or mig welder you could very easily put a little weld on it then file to fit. Mig or tig would do this without over heating washer. Looking at what little thread is damaged I think you could chase them.

Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:28 am
by cantgrowup
Thanks. I had thought about using TIG or MIG welding to increase the depth of the barrel nut washer nub, and may go that route if I can't restore the flattened threads.

Noob Admission! Sheepishly I have to admit an initial error in my understanding of the washer and groove function. I had thought that the barrel reciprocated through the washer during firing, but recently realized that the washer is stationary on the barrel and merely utilizes the groove to keep from rotationg. Duh! Silly me :oops: I apologize for my ignorance!

Now I understand that the gun will function correctly with the misaligned washer, but it does make taking the barrel assembly apart more difficult. Therefore, I will still try to remedy the situation.

Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:44 pm
by cantgrowup
Well guys... I think that I solved my rotating barrel washer problem (for now). I merely took a center punch and punched the barrel washer nub near the end on both sides. This created enough extra metal on the tip of the nub so that it now stays in the thread groove. I still plan to eventually chase the threads, but for now the rifle is back together and ready for me to shoot for the first time.

I appreciate the help from you fellow Model 8/81'ers. I really love forums like this. I now have the following rifles:

Model 8 .35 (1928) with standard half-pistol grip just like the gun that killed Clyde Barrow
Model 8 .35 (1930) same configuration as previous .35
Model 8 .32 (1919)
Model 8 .30 (1929) my most recent purchase and the one giving me the washer troubles

Model 81 .30 (1949)
Model 81 .35 (1941)
Model 81 .300 Sav (1946)

Now I just need an early Model 8 in .25 Rem (like Frank Hamer used in his early Ranger days) and a Model 81 in .32 Rem to round out my basic Great Model 8/81 collection.

Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:43 pm
by Rifleman
Good 'gun tuning' cantgrowup! I attempted several times to find the web-post I mentioned in my previous post giving the barrel tpi and screw sizes and tpi of them. I found it the first time by accident while searching for info on 8 and 81's. I think it possibly may have been a post on a web gun forum. Next time I have one of mine apart, I'll have to check the screws on my tpi thread checker if it can gauge them, but I've read the screw sizes on the 8/81's were odd, due to being produced before tpi sizes were standardized in the industry. I would guess any well stocked machine shop and/or gun shop that has the proper tools could cleanup the threads on your barrel. Nice varied collection you have. I see 81's in 32 Remington from time to time on Gunbroker. The 25 caliber model 8's are pretty rare and from I've read here on the forum and other places are pretty rare to find and command a higher price. In my area (Iowa) 8/81's are rare at gun shops and shows. Good luck on your search.

Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:45 am
by Huser91
After reading all this and several other threads about the washers Ive been thinking. Why hasn't anyone tried to get these fabricated yet ? If everywhere is out of the 35 Remington sized washers then why not pool together to get some made ?

I bring this up because I've been trying to find a lock washer for my 35 rem. From 1906 but can't seem to find them.
Any thoughts ?

Re: Barrel nut washer was off-center from barrel thread groove

Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:22 pm
by Fred
Huser91 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:45 am
why not pool together to get some made ?
Because it's a PITA. Looking at mine Remington probably stamped them out and then heat treated and blued them. I have been avoiding making my own because I know it'll be difficult to duplicate. On top of that there's nearly zero market for them. So unless someone puts forth the venture capital wihtout expecting a return new-production parts are unlikely.

Might be easier to re-design the nut/washer/jacket bushing like a Nylock or plastic tipped set-screw in through the side or something to eliminate the "key" on the washer alltogether.