25 rem primer problem?

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h.charlie
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25 rem primer problem?

Post by h.charlie » Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:03 pm

Not sure if my reloads are bad or its just maybe the ejection of the cases causing the primer to back out from being seated just bellow flush to sometimes a 16th of a inch out. I see no signs of over pressure like flattened primers, in fact they appear to be in perfect condition the load today was br-4 primers with 23 gr of 3031, with a 117gr Hornady btsp for sighting it in I have also seen the primers back out on 117gr Rn and using wlr, federal, and cci large rifle primers, the cases have been necked down from 30 rem but have also done it with 25 rem cases, no powder or residue is evident on the bolt face or base of the cartridge I'm at a loss as why they backing with out seeing any signs of pressure

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Phyrbird
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Re: 25 rem primer problem?

Post by Phyrbird » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:07 am

could be headspace with the resized cases.
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h.charlie
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Re: 25 rem primer problem?

Post by h.charlie » Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:20 pm

so possible fix. back the die out and check head space till extractor groove is flush with breach, could a dirty die be the problem?

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Roger
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Re: 25 rem primer problem?

Post by Roger » Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:40 pm

Sir,
I'm not sure this story would even correlate to your problem, but I thought I'd just throw it out there to"chew" on anyway. A long time ago, when I first tried to re-form 33 wcf from 45/70 gov., I annealed the cases for too long and down too far with the flame of the torch on to the area that would become the bottle neck area. When I took these to the range for testing in my winchester m-1886, it started backing out the primers. My more experienced reloading friends told me that I weakened and expanded the primer pockets with too much heat, and applying it too far down on the parent case. 45/70 is a long straight walled case,so it was hard to know how far down to heat the case. I corrected the problem and never had another minutes trouble. I'm alot more experienced now, and I'm just lucky that I had some friends who knew what I had done wrong. Otherwise I might have struggled with it for a long time. That was probably 12-15 years ago now .I don't know if this even comes close to to your situation,but there it is.
Thanks for your time,
Roger
Roger
raw4555@gmail.com

h.charlie
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Re: 25 rem primer problem?

Post by h.charlie » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:42 pm

Here are some pics one the primer backed out, one is of a loaded round in the breech as this how they are all head spaced let me know if it's to far but it looks right on unless I am wrong witch wouldn't be Un-heard of, the third is of a fired case next to a reload please notice what appears to b be a double neck on the fired formed case and on the reload that neck is straight is that normal and could pushing that double shoulder back down be changing the angle of the reformed brass to a different slope?
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Phyrbird
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Re: 25 rem primer problem?

Post by Phyrbird » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:43 pm

Is this the first firing after sizing from 30R to 25R? If so are you using a fire forming load or a full load the first time?

Are you running the sizer die all the way down to the shell holder? ( not recommended, the first time the case is sized smaller they should only be sized till the empty brass barely chambers with the bolt all the way closed)

Does every case fired come out with that "secondary shoulder"? (they aren't supposed to look that way)
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h.charlie
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Re: 25 rem primer problem?

Post by h.charlie » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:41 am

Yes every case even original 25 rem headstamp. No I guess I didn't set the die up properly as I left only a turn off the shell holder I use 23 gn of imr 3031 witch is in the middle of the road for a load. I'm still wondering about the secondary shoulder is that normal? Anyone ever seen that before? Is there a way to fix the headspace? Maybe lighter load with the btsp touching the rifling? 20.5 gn or less?

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Phyrbird
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Re: 25 rem primer problem?

Post by Phyrbird » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:06 am

The reason for some of the questions:
I have a dozen 270 cases I cannot use, my father in law full length resized down to the shell holder. The firing pin just barely touches the primer. WAY TOO much. Over sized cases can separate and blow back on you.
As said before the right way is to size without moving the shoulder of the case. You can see the mark on the case neck where the die shoulder stops. Don't let it meet the shoulder. As long as the case will fully chamber you are good.
However if fired rounds show a definite "second" shoulder, that is a different problem. It could be the chamber.
I use about 8-10 grains of Unique to fire form cases in this size of case. Just the first time. After that a regular load.
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h.charlie
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Re: 25 rem primer problem?

Post by h.charlie » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:06 am

the second shoulder is definitely from the chamber I'm still lost as to why they would even have that

h.charlie
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Re: 25 rem primer problem?

Post by h.charlie » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:31 pm

So I thought I would share a update, loading the 25 rem and seating the bullet to touch the lands has solved the primer popping out. But that problem brought up the oddity of all my cases having a double shoulder, after taking the case to 3 reloading shops and 2 gun stores all of witch seemed stunned and baffled to the idea, and one even tried saying it was my fault... but after showing him that even on factory 25 rem cartridge that the shoulder still appeared after firing, he then sent me to find a gunsmith who may know, but he's on vacation tell next month ha, that's just my luck

Fred
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Re: 25 rem primer problem?

Post by Fred » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:13 pm

Find a smith with a bore scope and have a look for yourself what the chamber looks like.

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Sarge756
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Re: 25 rem primer problem?

Post by Sarge756 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:30 pm

Advice for borescope and gunsmith ok but you can use "Cerrosafe" to make a chamber cast yourself and see what is going on. If you do, would be interested what the findings are. If your local store doesn`t have it, below link will get it on the way.MidwayUSA and others carry it too. If not familiar with this product click on the "learn" tab for articles and instructions.
Joe

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools ... od384.aspx
".......ain't many troubles that a man cain't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."

h.charlie
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Re: 25 rem primer problem?

Post by h.charlie » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:58 am

I know the chamber is shaped like that but I'm trying to find the reason why. I have started to just run the full length sizer just down to top of the first shoulder and the shape has never changed for three reloads. I'm wondering if there was a batch or something like these made from factory, and if not why would someone make it?

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Phyrbird
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Re: 25 rem primer problem?

Post by Phyrbird » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:42 pm

Charlie,
I think from the photos and your notes your chamber may just a little different than standard. I agree that a bore-scope may be in order.
Just the same, if you don't use max loads, neck size to the top shoulder, and remember to fireform new brass, there should be little problem. Eventually your brass will need full length resizing and annealing. that would give you another 8-10 reloads.
Do keep an eye out for cracks just ahead of the case head close to the extractor groove. That's a sign of case head separation. NOT good.
Phyrbird
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h.charlie
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Re: 25 rem primer problem?

Post by h.charlie » Fri May 29, 2015 7:53 am

So I have been turning some 30-30 for my 25 rem that has the double shoulder pictured above and when it came to sizing the necks down I started to just size to the first should with the 25 rem die and let them just slam in the chamber for final fitting, then it click in my brain that this was a fired cases and if I sized them with the 30 rem die first it might fit perfectly I did a trial run and it work I'm still at a loss about why there is a double shoulder and wonder if it the diameter being the same as 30 is coincidence or not

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Phyrbird
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Re: 25 rem primer problem?

Post by Phyrbird » Fri May 29, 2015 9:30 am

Charlie,
You might try this:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00XH5073U/ref ... WLB3QXJJGU

It's not a magnifier, but they do get in tiny holes.
Phyrbird
SOKY

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