bolt lock back

Information on Malfunctions and Care of your Model 8 & 81
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kendall
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bolt lock back

Post by kendall » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:52 pm

Hi, new here, not new to the Model 8/81's
A little background. My first intro to the model 8 was growing up in northern Utah, my grandfather had one in 35 Rem caliber and used it for deer and elk hunting. This is the only rifle I ever remember him having for big game hunting from the late 50's until he quit hunting in the middle 70's at ~80 years of age. Deer and elk were typically taken at closer ranges then, but I do remember some fairly long shots he made to harvest our yearly venison. Lots of good memories there, so when he passed on and my cousin inherited that rifle, ( I got the Greener shotgun:)) I made it a mission to own one. Since then I've owned three of them, but always let them go. To add fuel to this fire, I grew up in John Browning's back yard, spent thirty years in the Army, and there aren't many people on a higher pedestal in my mind than JMB. I go out of my way to own Browning design firearms. This last year I picked up a pristine model 81, in 35 Rem, and this one is a keeper.
I've been shooting factory and reload fodder through the rifle for a few months now with no problems, but tonight all of a sudden the bolt will not lock back, unless I push up on the bolt release button at the bottom left of the receiver. This indicates to me that maybe a spring is broken? I have looked at the field manual here and the troubleshooting guide indicates a broken magazine indicator can cause this problem.

I'm ok at doing my own gunsmithing, but before I pull this baby apart, I'm looking for advice from you model 8/81 nut cases.

I'll sit back and watch the knowledge flow.

I'll get some pics posted if you guys are interested. The production code id's it as a 1940 production, I think. There seem to be some discrepancies on the internet with those code charts.

Kendall

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jack1653
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by jack1653 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:25 am

Hey kendall,

Welcome to the forum. You have an interesting story and history. I think most of us admire JMB and what he did in firearm design. Good to hear that you have found a pristine 81. They are hard to come by.

You can do your own take down without the needof a gunsmith. There are several threads on the forum that deal with take down and there are some videos also. I will let some of the other guys comment on the issue of the bolt hold back and the likely culprit that is causing the problem. This happens occassionaly on these old guns and from what I have read here, the fix is usually pretty straight forward. There are some guys that have extra parts and they may be able to help. If not, someone will provide a link to a website where you can get replacement parts, most of the time.

We would love to see some pictures of your rifle.

Regards,

jack1653

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Roger
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by Roger » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:35 am

Since your gun seemed to function OK. For a while, it may have broken a magazine indicator spring or just the mag. Indicator itself. However, I had a similar issue w/one of my 81 s,and upon dissasembly, found that the bolt carrier latch@spring were completely missing. The point being, it could be a couple of things causing your issue. Taking it apart will probably show you the problem. Let me know if I can be of anymore help to you. I've taken apart many of my 8/81 s. I have a good book with photos as a guide, but as Jack has stated there are things on this website to help you.
Thanks for your time,
Roger
Roger
raw4555@gmail.com

kendall
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Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:25 pm

Re: bolt lock back

Post by kendall » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:15 pm

Thank You for the warm welcome. I managed to take the rifle apart last night and after cleaning it and comparing parts to diagrams, the problem was evident. The barrel lock spring is missing. So now the burning question becomes: Who has one to sell me??? I suppose the barrel lock with the spring attached would be the way to go. I'll move over to the trading post.

Thanks again.

kenhwind
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Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:50 am

Re: bolt lock back

Post by kenhwind » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:10 am

Parts for these rifles go up for auction on eBay periodically, and can get a bit pricey. Gun Broker also. Gun Parts Corp might have what you need, and you can try Jack First Gun Parts.
KEN

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Pitchy
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by Pitchy » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:20 pm

When looking down in the action from the top, slide locked open is the indicator spring supossed to be laying on the frame.
The flat spring with the ears on the forward end, my 81 locks open when hand cycling but not on last round.
I can`t tell by the parts diagram if that spring goes under something.

Guess my question would be is that spring supposed to stick up a little when looking at it from a open slide?
A lot of water under the bridge good and bad,
Bad when i did it my way, Good when i did it Gods way.

USAF-72-76

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Roger
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by Roger » Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:28 pm

The answer to your question is no, it's supposed to fit in a little recess under where it is sitting now. You shouldn't be able to see the little titty on the end. Sorry, I don't know the term for the end of the spring. The only way that I know to get it back where it belongs is to remove the stock and take apart the tang /receiver assembly. There are tools on this website to help you with disasembly/re-assembly. I'm no good at explaining the process. From time to time you find one with that spring in the wrong place.Be advised though that the stock screws on these rifles( m-8/81) are sometimes difficult to put back together. I have a flat-knob m-8 with this same problem,but the stock screw is ruined and impossible to remove. So i have simply left it alone because those flat knb pistol grip m-8 s are really rare birds,and I don't want to screw it up in any way. My gunsmith said he might be able to remove it but so far I haven't done anything to it. The point being that a simple repair can sometimes take on a life if it's own so to speak. Here on this forum i've also seen other members who've had trouble realigning the m-81 stock screw.
Good luck,
Roger
Roger
raw4555@gmail.com

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Pitchy
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by Pitchy » Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:49 pm

Thanks Roger, if ya remember i had this gun apart a couple times fixing the extractor problem so no issue taking it apart or putting it back together.
Aparently i missed doing something when installing the indicator then because the spring lays flat and i can move it left and right.
Any more instruction on what i missed ?
A lot of water under the bridge good and bad,
Bad when i did it my way, Good when i did it Gods way.

USAF-72-76

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Pitchy
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by Pitchy » Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:21 pm

Got it, stripped it down and see the slot the ear on the spring goes in.
Easy to miss and the easiest way to put it in is to remove the slide.
Thanks Roger, your the man today. 8-) 8-)
A lot of water under the bridge good and bad,
Bad when i did it my way, Good when i did it Gods way.

USAF-72-76

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Pitchy
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by Pitchy » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:55 pm

Well Roger it worked better but still missed one, i knew i should of bent that spring a little while i had it out to give it a little more pressure.

Click on pic for video of todays test firing.

Image
A lot of water under the bridge good and bad,
Bad when i did it my way, Good when i did it Gods way.

USAF-72-76

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81police
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by 81police » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:22 pm

Great video Pitchy!
Cam Woodall
Site Co-Administrator

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Roger
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by Roger » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:42 pm

Pitch, I'm glad it's improved a little bit, however I'm sure it will do better. Sometimes I have taken the stock off. @ removed the action spring from the tube inside the stock. I've cleaned it up and then carefully oiled it up.I think that sometimes the resistance of the spring is too great and it keeps the bolt from going all'the way to the rear when fired. I first saw this problem in an Auto 5 shotgun, which is essentially the same action. JMB made them both in a parallel development. It might be worth a try,and while it's apart bend that spring a little. I hope it fixes it for good. Your video was really fun to watch. Keep up the good posting work here on the forum.
Thanks for your time,
Roger
Roger
raw4555@gmail.com

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Pitchy
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by Pitchy » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:49 pm

Thanks again Guys.
I`ll tear it down again tomorrow and do the suggested, bet it`s the spring as it layed pretty flat.
Was going to tweek it a little last time but forgot, ya know how this old age memory thing goes. :lol:
I`ll make it right yet you can bet on it.
Those 15 rounds were some factory stuff i wanted to shoot up so i can reload the cases.
Oterwise i would of only put one round in at a time to check the hold open function. :)
A lot of water under the bridge good and bad,
Bad when i did it my way, Good when i did it Gods way.

USAF-72-76

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Pitchy
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by Pitchy » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:39 pm

Couldn`t wait, stripped it down and bent the spring a little. The slide spring and tube are clean and oiled so don`t think that is a issue.
The lock open notch in the slide looked good too so hoping the spring tension is the fix.
Will shoot it some tomorrow and up-date. :)
A lot of water under the bridge good and bad,
Bad when i did it my way, Good when i did it Gods way.

USAF-72-76

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Sarge756
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by Sarge756 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:35 am

I realize this started with "the bolt lock back " issue and appreciate the ideas and discussion. However, with the video provided by Pitchy I believe it is worth mentioning that a prior subject of discussion on the forum was illustrated very effectively. This was the post about stripper clips. After viewing Pitchy`s video I don`t believe any doubt could remain that using stripper clips is the way to go.Fifteen rounds down range smooth and fast.
Joe
".......ain't many troubles that a man cain't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."

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Pitchy
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by Pitchy » Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:17 am

Thanks Joe 8-) it was fun and the clips are handy if ya plan on emptying the gun which is what they were designed for.
One issue i see would be if a person only shot say three rounds say like in a hunting situation.
Then a few loose rounds in your pocket would be handy to top off the magazine.
I have some cast bullets on order and when i get them and load up some i have to try the lock open function again and will post another video using the clips and having more fun.
A lot of water under the bridge good and bad,
Bad when i did it my way, Good when i did it Gods way.

USAF-72-76

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imfuncity
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by imfuncity » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:43 pm

Very cool vid - course we are assuming you hit something.... ;)
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine

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Pitchy
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by Pitchy » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:43 am

Yea i did , was shooting at a ten inch gong at 100 yards and was hitting it good until i hit the pipe it swings on. :shock:
Punched a hole clean through it , somehow the gong swung back and got stuck. :shock:
It`s hard to shoot a video and get a close up of the action working and the target.
Thanks.
A lot of water under the bridge good and bad,
Bad when i did it my way, Good when i did it Gods way.

USAF-72-76

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Pitchy
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Location: Mn.

Re: bolt lock back

Post by Pitchy » Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:08 pm

Nope, single loaded three rounds and it only locked open one out of three.
Not sure where to look next, will disemble again and have a look see. :?
A lot of water under the bridge good and bad,
Bad when i did it my way, Good when i did it Gods way.

USAF-72-76

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Roger
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by Roger » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:41 pm

Hey Pitchy. I may have your answer, from John Henwoods book. On page 182 he says that the 2 nd most common reassembly mistake is putting the recoil spring case in upside down. And I quote( If the recoil spring case is installed backward the rifle can be fired but the barrel can't recoil far enuf to lock the bolt back.) End of quote. Hey it might be worth a look.
Thanks for your time,
Roger
Roger
raw4555@gmail.com

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Pitchy
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by Pitchy » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:30 pm

Thanks Roger but not the problem, i found it.
First, talk about agrivation and hope ya all appreciate these videos.
It took five hours and fifteen minutes to download this video.
I`m paying for WI-FI from the neaghbor and it can really vary.
Ok the problem with the hold open, because i`m getting to be an old fart and can`t see very good i missed the slight round over of the hold open notch in the slide.
After getting out the magnify gleass i caught it and took the slide to the vise and filed it to a flat edge again along with flatening the end of the hold open arm.
Foregive my wrong use of the names for these parts.
Also i am not recomending anyone preform these actions to their guns, it`s just what i did to mine.
Always consult a gunsmith first, to bad a person has to say such things but that`s the way it is.
Anyway that was the problem and as you see by the video was the fix.
Took a while to get er done but as they say persistance pays off. :D

Image

Image

Click on picture for video.

Image
A lot of water under the bridge good and bad,
Bad when i did it my way, Good when i did it Gods way.

USAF-72-76

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Roger
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by Roger » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:37 am

Hey, I'm sure glad you found the problem. Great video. I wish I owned equipt. To enable me to film myself and post it here,but I don't. I can't even post pics. With my tablet computer. I'm too busy buying guns!!
I knew that 81 would work right for you. These rifles are pretty awesome. Thank you JMB!!
Thanks for your time
Roger
Roger
raw4555@gmail.com

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81police
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by 81police » Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:49 am

Pitchy you make the coolest videos!
Cam Woodall
Site Co-Administrator

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Pitchy
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Re: bolt lock back

Post by Pitchy » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:38 pm

81police wrote:Pitchy you make the coolest videos!
Thanks, i`m pretty happy with the 81 now. :)
A lot of water under the bridge good and bad,
Bad when i did it my way, Good when i did it Gods way.

USAF-72-76

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