Greetings from Italy

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Ol'Thunder
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Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:10 am
Location: Pisa, Italy.

Greetings from Italy

Post by Ol'Thunder »

Hi everybody!
A dozen years ago I found a rifle I could not identify, therefore I launched a SOS on the web. My doubts were resolved by Bob Creamer, who told me that it was the Eurpean version of the Model 8 and very kindly sent to me some documents (an article by E.F. Furler, a copy of an instruction manual in German and a brochure by himself).
Only few days ago, searching for further informations, I found this site and its new page dedicated to the FN 1900. Very nice and useful.
(Personal profile, for those who may concern: male, 70 y.o., married with sons and nephews, retired professor of the University of Pisa, owner of a not too large collection of pistols, rifles and shotguns, equally interested in historical, technical, practical and socio-psychological aspects of firearms).
That's all for today!
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81police
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Re: Greetings from Italy

Post by 81police »

Ol'Thunder,

You're most welcome as one of our few European members! Bob is a very friendly and helpful guy and their family knows their 8/81 stuff. I would be very appreciative to hear more about your FN 1900. Is ammunition readily available in Italy? Have you ever seen another one?
Cam Woodall
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Hardrada55
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Re: Greetings from Italy

Post by Hardrada55 »

Welcome to the forum! It's nice to have someone to talk to with an interest in firearms and a European prospective to add to the mix. If there is any way we can be of service, please let us know.
...the right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America..."
- Hubert H. Humphrey, "Gun" magazine, Feb. '60
sighthound
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Re: Greetings from Italy

Post by sighthound »

Hope you latched onto the Italian FN 1900, as you may know only a little over 4000 made, once had one that came from Sweden, now resides with another forum member, currently have one that immigrated to USA in a returning GI duffle bag after WWII. In europe ammo will come in a number of designations 9 x 48, 9 x 49, etc but it is all same as 35 Remington. Some pictures of rifle would be most appreciated if possible. Jerry
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imfuncity
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Re: Greetings from Italy

Post by imfuncity »

Welcome indeed. I had read that it is not easy to get permission to own a firearm in your country. Congrats on a having at least one rare one. I second the request for pictures. :)
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
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Ol'Thunder
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Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:10 am
Location: Pisa, Italy.

Re: Greetings from Italy

Post by Ol'Thunder »

Thanks to all for your welcome!

81police:
Yes, ammunitions are available. No, I haven't seen any before, neither had the gunsmith (an old friend of mine) who got it from someone who had inherited it but clearly disliked firearms. What bothered me was the stamping "Fabrique Nationale" etc., there was no mention of such a rifle in any publication available in Italy, nor on the websites of Herstal Group. If there had not been Bob Creamer I believe that I should have employed years to find a correct information!

imfuncity:
Owing a firearm in Italy requires an authorisation, but there are no limits to the number of rifles and shotguns. Full auto weapons are obviously prohibited, but even military arms are permitted (I owe a full series of Italian model 91, a Garand, an M1 carbine etc.).
On the other hand, there are heavy regulations about hunting.
For pistols, things are different. Possession is possible with the same authorisation for shotguns, but nobody can have more than three. If someone has more, he needs a collectionist's license and cannot use them. Shooting as a sport allows possession of no more than five dedicated pistols. Anyway, permissions for carry are severely restricted.
A strange norm, that I believe exsisting only in Italy, says that carbines cal. .22 must be counted as pistols; the official reason is to avoid poaching, but it is only a demential brainchild of our bureucracy.

Everybody else:
Yes, I'll post some photos ASAP.
Have a nice day!
[size=50][i]The rain it raineth all around,
upon the just and unjust fella;
but chiefly un the just, because
the unjust stolen the just’s umbrella.[/i][/size]
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Ol'Thunder
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Location: Pisa, Italy.

Re: Greetings from Italy

Post by Ol'Thunder »

sighthound wrote:In europe ammo will come in a number of designations 9 x 48, 9 x 49, etc but it is all same as 35 Remington.
An oddity: a friend of mine, who has several old catalogues of German cartridges (DWM, RWS and so on) told me that he never saw on them any 9x48 or 9x49. On the other hand, the article of E.F. Furler Jr. on the RSA Journal reports an advertisement that says: "Cal. 9x63 1/2". But neither I nor my friend have ever had any notice of such a cartridge; on the Barnes' book I can find only an obsolete German 9x62. However, my copy of a German manual (courtesy of Bob Creamer) is entitled: "Selbstladebüchse Browning Kaliber 9 m/m (= Americanisch Kal. 35)", and all the known FN 1900 seem to be chambered for .35 Remington, otherwise Cam Woodall would have written something about.
It is to believe that the adverisement quoted by Furler reported the total lenght of the cartridge and not the lenght of its case. But this would be the only case I know!
Can somebody resolve the mystery?
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imfuncity
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Re: Greetings from Italy

Post by imfuncity »

Thanks for the info on ownership. .22 rifles as pistols, that is a new one for sure. We are blessed here in the states (even behind enemy lines in Calif.) and we have the NRA to thank - but we must stay vigilant.
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
sighthound
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Re: Greetings from Italy

Post by sighthound »

In past posts within the past couple of years there has been information posted regarding metric designations for the FN Model 1900 rifle in several european countries, however, I can't locate it at moment but will keep searching. I certainly did not mean to confuse the issue. I did find one old post that listed 8.86 and 8.9 in addition to 9mm for the caliber but can't find the one listing other than 48 and 49 for case length. Perhaps someone else remembers and can locate. Jerry
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81police
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Re: Greetings from Italy

Post by 81police »

Ol'Thunder wrote:
and all the known FN 1900 seem to be chambered for .35 Remington, otherwise Cam Woodall would have written something about.

This is an area of the FN 1900 I didn't spend too much time on, there very well may be multiple designations for this caliber. Almost every piece of original advertisement I came across simply lists the cartridge as "Cal. 35 (9 m/m)". One German ad I did see listed an additional number "9x63.5" which is similar to the ad published by the RSA in Ed Furler Jr.'s article.
Cam Woodall
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Ol'Thunder
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Location: Pisa, Italy.

Re: Greetings from Italy

Post by Ol'Thunder »

sighthound was right. On the website of ECRA (http://www.ecra.info/start.php) I can see both denominations, 9x48 and 9x49. But I think that it's a mere matter of names, because I'm uncertain if such a cartridge was ever made in Europe. Actually, sales of the FN 1900 started some years later than sales of the Model 8, and it is to believe that neither FN nor any other factory made ammunitions for it, relying only on UMC production.
The unresolved question is about the 9x63,5 cartridge. The second term of European cartridge designation is always case lenght. Now, a case lenght of 63,5 mm for a 9 mm caliber is unknown. There exsist up to four 9x63 (dies are still available from ch4d, http://www.ch4d.com/catalog/dies/caliber-list?page=56) a cartridge made in Europe several years before than .35 Whelen: but who, for God's sake, has every had notice of a FN 1900 in such a caliber?
Why both Ed Furler and Cam Woodall report ads with that designation? I can only suppose that either a) it was a mistake of someone who referred to the whole lenght of the cartridge instead of the lenght of case, or b) there was a FN intent to chamber the rifle for a new 9x63,5 round, that never was made.
???????
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81police
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Re: Greetings from Italy

Post by 81police »

Ol' Thunder here's a couple of pictures. The first one is an old ad that gives the caliber designation of 9x63.5, which is another term for the 35 Remington. I don't know about Remington UMC sending cartridges to feed the FN 1900, but I do know FN manufactured their own ammunition which is very rare today (especially in the United States).

A rough translation from a portion of the FN manual says,

"to ensure perfect function of the Browning autoloading rifle, F.N. has decided to manufacture their own ammunition...we recommend that hunters exclusively use our cartridges marked (headstamped) F.N.'" (p.25).
Attachments
FN cal designation.jpg
FN cal designation.jpg (127 KiB) Viewed 8415 times
cartouches-FN-9mm-Browning.jpg
cartouches-FN-9mm-Browning.jpg (435.7 KiB) Viewed 8415 times
Cam Woodall
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Ol'Thunder
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Location: Pisa, Italy.

Re: Greetings from Italy

Post by Ol'Thunder »

81police wrote: ...I do know FN manufactured their own ammunition which is very rare today (especially in the United States).
I believe that original FN cartridges are even harder to find in Europe, within about ten years since i owe my mod. 1900 I was unable to see any.
However, thank you very much for the pictures. My doubts came from the circumstancy that the expression "63½" cannot be referred to the case of .35 Remington, and never I read or heard of a metric classification of a cartridge by its whole lenght. On the other hand, there is no evidence that FN had ever chambered their rifle in any other caliber.
[you and everyone else, forgive me if my English is not always correct!]
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