Model 14/141 (and 8/81) Question

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coop923
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Model 14/141 (and 8/81) Question

Post by coop923 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:35 pm

I've been pondering a question lately regarding the 14/141 (and 8/81) rifles. When Remington switched to the newer model designation in the 30s, I recognize the cosmetic differences, and understand that there were internal differences as well. I have read recently that the changes were made not as improvements, but put into place to cut the manufacturing cost of rifles that were complex and expensive to produce -at a time when a lot of people had very limited money to spend. Can anyone shed any light on this or share any thoughts about this? Are there any big advantages to the older models, or the newer models?

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81police
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Re: Model 14/141 (and 8/81) Question

Post by 81police » Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:24 am

I can only speak for the Model 8 & 81...

The cosmetic face-lift from late production Model 8's to the Model 81 facilitated a few differences in parts, but the internals remained the same. And all the parts differences I can think of were necessary b/c of cosmetic changes. Just a few off the top of my head, the trigger plates are different b/c the rifles have different grip angles & stocks. So that also means the tang (stock) screw is different. I have heard the angle of the "hump" part of the receiver is measurably different in a Model 8 & 81. But if you disassemble both, the quality of components are identical and nearly everything is interchangeable.


I don't have Henwood's book nearby to check figures, but I'd imagine cost savings were marginal in switching from the 8 to the 81. Whatever savings there were, if any, I'd guess they probably came from the labor & materials in stocks, buttplates, and forearms.

Advantages of older models or newer models? Just by date of birth, Model 8's are older so on average they will have more miles on them than Model 81's. This is why you see more Model 81's in 90-95+% condition than Model 8's. Model 8's seem to be more collectible though.
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coop923
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Location: Northern California

Re: Model 14/141 (and 8/81) Question

Post by coop923 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:27 pm

Thanks! I have the older version of both the 8 and the 14, and know of a 141 in very nice condition for sale locally. Just wondered if there was much difference besides the obvious cosmetic ones.

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imfuncity
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Re: Model 14/141 (and 8/81) Question

Post by imfuncity » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:00 am

Think you might benefit by doing a search on here regarding 14 and 141's, here is one good thread (there are several others)
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3085

And I highly recommend this guy and his book:
http://www.remingtonsociety.com/rsa/books/Remington14
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine

Douglas Reid
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Re: Model 14/141 (and 8/81) Question

Post by Douglas Reid » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:50 am

The following is a copy of a post from a man who knows much more about the Remington Model 14 than most people I know of. He posts under the user name "nambujim" on the Remington Society of America forums:

Countless years back I acquired a Model 141, I quickly rid myself of it in favor of a Model 14 in the same caliber. That quick exchange was the beginning of a "love affair" with the Model 14, after all what is there not to love about all the milling/machining that was virtually all done by hand.

The years clouded over the purchase of that first Model 141 while I acquired "numerous" Model 14's in just about every variation possible until I came to the realization that "no two are identical". With 14's stacked all over the place I acquired some almost new very low serial Model 141's because they still utilized "14" barrels, the workmanship was exceptional, and the parts had become uniform & consistent.

I even went so far as to pick up a few Model 141's with the transition barrel that still had the "boss" for the magazine ring with the new 24" barrel but all my 141 purchases had been below serial number 37,000 and were all nice well fitting guns with great finish!

Some years went by and I started doing repair work (more like parts switching) but ONLY worked on the Model 14 and most of the repairs were to older guns in which parts had either broken or simply wore out from age. Rarely did I ever see a Model 141 come in but in checking what records I have, few if any had serials above 40,000 and don't recall anything special or outstanding about them.

We jump ahead in time and I see this nice little Model 141 in .30 Cal. on one of the auction sites at a dirt cheap price. It has had the receiver drilled for a fairly rare Redfield receiver sight that I have had sitting in my parts drawer for twenty years but other than than it just needed to be cleaned up so I thought.

This Model 141 was made in July 1948, with a serial in the 63,000 range and the first thing I encountered is that it would not readily "take down" so I removed the stock and used a "dead blow" hammer to separate the upper & lower receiver. The good news is that the folks that sold me the rifle didn't attempt to separate it, didn't take off the buttplate, and is many the case there was a lot of good stuff in the "bolt hole".......LOTS!

It took about three seconds of looking at the inside of the receiver to remind me of that day in about 1964 when I unloaded the Model 141 to remember why I got rid of it. While the exterior of the rifle looked exceptional something took place at the factory after serial 37,000 (the last M141 that I have with supurb milling/machining/finish) and this serial. I was relating this story to Tom Hemphill and he has a Model 141 in serial range 59,000 (December 1947) with the same problems I'm about to describe.

I won't try to be dramatic but to say the milling marks inside the frame were "horrific" is a fair statement, on one side of the frame they ran the whole length, were very deep, and went from the top to the bottom of the receiver. A close inspection of the other key parts like the bolt & action bar told the same story and even the magazine plug had obvious concealed machine marks.

Tom took his rifle to a "professional" gunsmith in northern Minnesota who he has known for years, this chap can do anything, has a shop that is huge, his shop is immaculate, its well organized, and it overlooks a huge lake but all that aside the guy is amazing. I didn't know it at the time but Tom had him mill out the upper receiver so the lower would not have to be driven out with a "dead blow" hammer.

I don't have that type of equipment so went after the obvious with my Dremel Tool and about 3-4 sanding drums and an hour later I had removed enough metal so that the two pieces fit together nicely, still a little stiff but can be readily separated. I had to do a little touch-up here and there to the blue but nothing serious, at Tom's suggestion I installed the Redfield 102BX Receiver Sight, and the rifle (after some work to the finish on the stock) looks almost factory fresh.

It's necessary here to stress that ALL the metal milling I'm talking about is concealed and only that on the upper/lower receiver required attention. So if you are going to purchase a rifle with a serial from 55,000 & up I sure would check the upper/lower fit before buying but with that said you can readily fix it yourself or identify the problem to a "good" smith and he can remove the excess metal for you........at a price and good "smiths" don't come cheap.

Again, information that I thought was worth passing on.

Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC

I hope this helps you all.
Douglas

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