Model 8/81 "vintage" slings thoughts....

[Adam Lee]

Guys, and by that I mean Jack,

sorry about my ADHD obsession over your awesome new Police Model's leather sling. I have noted since the get-go that the sling is an original and correct type for that rifle. It is again wonderful to have it with the gun, since it makes it a "complete package" so to speak.

Number 1: hope you guys (I mean Jack) don't have the impression that I thought for a second your sling wasn't authentic - I am sure it is!

Number 2: I was just trying to gather some data about the M1907 style slings that feature the double claw ends, such as yours. The slings are very much like the M1907 military type, but usually are less than the 1-1/4" width of the US Military types. It appears these can be 7/8" or 1" in width, as opposed to the wider Army types.

I had wanted to begin gathering a "data list" or create a spreadsheet documenting period/vintage slings of this type - the ones that look like the US types, but narrower in width and/or lacking the second "adjustable" portion of the sling arrangement. If you take a look at 1920's-1940's police and LE shotguns, for example, you see a "mix" of what I call "sporter" or civilian M1907 slings as well as US military 1-1/4" wide slings.

I am 100% sure there are a couple Garand and 1903 Springfield nuts out there on this board who know what I'm getting at - and I am only interested in it for the history of it all. In fact, I have an old M1907 civilian sling that has no markings whatsoever, that I'm sure is from the 40's or so for example.

To summarize: (jeez, this sounds like I'm at work!)
1. I need to start a new thread about slings in general, and civilian examples of M1907 in particular....and...

2. I need to recognize when I get too obsessive!!!!

thanks guys.
Adam

[Adam Lee]

Folks,

I'd like to know if those of you with period or vintage leather slings that came with your Model 8/81 rifles would care to participate in a data-gathering project.

Much like the unique history of our Remington rifles, shotguns, and pistols; the various accessories and related gear has relevant history as well. To that end, it may have some value to share and analyze some things we notice about our leather "double claw" US M1907-style slings. I believe that there are two general "categories" - those that are the actual US military contract M1907 slings and those that are similar but different in length, width, and finish details.

Possible points to consider/share for this research:

1. Markings, stampings, manufacturer identification of any type.
2. Type of "claws" - brass, steel, alloy; riveted, brazed, etc.
3. Length and width of sling parts - and whether the slings are in 1 or 2 parts.
4. Any information regarding what type of rifle, serial or year code that the sling was related to.

OK, that's it for now - I will come back to clean this up and add my own information - but I am going to my sister's wedding today, so that will have to wait!

Adam

[81police]

Adam,

The difficulty you will find, at least with these rifles, is the disparity between what some may deem an original sling vs others. Different guys may use different ways to determine what they may believe is an original...and this is getting even deeper, an original set of sling swivels & eyelets. Just because they're vintage looking doesn't make them factory original. As I'm out of town, I don't have all my resources handy to post for you. When I get back I'll show some examples of factory installed sling eyelet locations, sling swivels, and slings.

This is a great topic Adam, something that will surely help out all of us. I'll be back!

[jack1653]

Hey Adam,

No problems with me on your questions. I think they are appropriate and we all benefit when questions about these rifles and their accessories are poised for clarification. My problem is that I don't know everything about these rifles and I continue to learn when people ask questions. I often get sidetracked with the rifle and don't pay attention to the things I should.

I have received slings on many of the rifles I have bought over the years. I, generally speaking, remove the slings to make it easier to get the rifle in and out of the safe. I would be more than happy to provide any detail about them that you would feel pertinent to your study. Just let us know what you want and I will try to oblige.

Regards,

jack1653

[Adam Lee]

Cam, Jack,

I've been out of town over the weekend visiting family and participating in my sister's wedding. Just logged back onto the web - just wanted to say thanks for your replies to this topic.

I agree with Cam's point - since most of the 8/81's were "civilian" guns in general, their issue to LE and organized support units does indicate that one is more than likely to find a wide range of a mix of slings, as well as the likelihood that the slings were added years later.
That's fine - I believe that, much like the sling researchers and collectors of military rifles and carbines, we can still learn much in terms of the period history of how/when/why and where leather military-style "double claw" or M1907-type slings appeared to be used with our Remingtons.
Also, this is not meant to be a "find the fakery" witch hunt but rather a very friendly and honest assessment of the wide variety of leather slings our rifles have worn over the years. I am sure we will see vintage examples of locally-made types that indicate a particular influence of regional styles, for example the leather slings I associate with western themes, such as the western floral style.

When I get settled at work, I'll try and create a basic "rubric" or template that any interested folks can use to enter and share their findings. Also, it would be appropriate for me to suggest (for those who wish to do so) certain "angle" or composition photos of their slings for comparative reference.

If you're a Mosin Nagant or Kar98k Mauser or M1 Garand guy, you can relate - you all know how obsessive we get with all the unique markings, roll stampings, ordnance inspector marks, and so on.

This should be fun!

[DWalt]

Regarding M-Ns and their markings, the Finnish M-Ns take the prize with their diversity of markings and variations. They will typically have numerous stampings and overstamps. I have one which appears to have had at least 4 SNs, with 3 of them marked out. But yet it is completely original, as apparently whenever the Finns did something to a rifle, they for some unknown reason, felt compelled to re-number it. Nothing matches. I have a M28 Civil Guard rifle on which the metal is fairly beat-up, but has, as near as I can determine, a M27 stock in perfect condition. So when these went through armory maintenance, I guess they just used whatever parts they had available. The big benefit was that the Finns showed themselves to be much better marksmen with these clunkers than the Russians were.

I'm not sure how anyone could determine what style of M8/81 sling would have been factory original unless there are catalogs showing in some detail what sling was used, or unless there is some specific Remington marking or stamping found on the factory slings. I have one M81 with what could have been a factory leather sling, but it's in fairly poor condition, and I have no idea if it is original or not. For that matter, I don't know if the sling swivels are original either.

[Adam Lee]

DWalt,

Thank you for chiming in with your Mosin Nagant feedback. Glad to hear another guy's got Mosinitis like me! Yes indeed, the Mosin Nagant rifles and carbines that went through the FInns in so many different forms and flavors became "well marked" and quite interesting. We're going to have to get another thread going for THAT one....which I'd be very interested in.

On your point about the difficulty and perhaps impossibility of truly determining whether a particular M8/81 Remington in one's possession was originally issued or outfitted with a sling does not matter to me, for the purposes of this simple survey.

I'm just getting the ball rolling so perhaps we as a group might begin noticing trends in patterns, styles, similarities and differences in the various leather slings our rifles are adorned with. However, to be clear, my interest is more focused on those slings which appear to most likely have been "period-correct" to the rifle in question. This is clearly subjective, and that's perfectly fine, because to my mind the ultimate goal is for us to begin to recognize "patterns and trends" in Remington 8 and 81 slings used over their production lifetime.

Hopefully, that core idea makes some sense to 'yall. For an example of what slings I do NOT intend to include in this informal survey, those may include any modern reproduction of an M1907 sling or any modern aftermarket sling one may have added since purchasing their firearm. Since I do not personally own a sling that came with my rifle, but rather purchased a reproduction leather sling, I will not participate in sharing images of that particular sling. It suits me fine, and I am happy with it, but it does not reflect the "research focus" of this topic.

Now, if you own (like Jack, I believe, owns a few) ANY Model 8/81 that happened to come to you with a leather sling that you even remotely consider matches the "age and wear" consistent with your firearm, that sling would fall into the category of what we are interested in here.

Let's say, you removed or usually remove the slings from those rifles you collect as a matter of course. You may even have gotten a bit mixed-up as to which one came with a certain rifle. That is absolutely fine to include. Just make a note of these details when you post information - "this sling came with one of my Model 81's, but I can't recall exactly..." This would be fine to include.

However, if you can, certainly share the Model and serial range or month/year range of your firearm if you feel willing to do so. We may begin seeing patterns of how and where and what particular model of Remington being associated with certain slings and types.

Specific points to consider/share for this research:

1. Markings, stampings, manufacturer identification of any type.
2. Type of "claws" - brass, steel, alloy; riveted, brazed, etc. - if used with your sling.
3. Length and width of sling - and whether the slings are in 1 or 2 or more parts.
4. Sling "keepers" used - how many (1 or 2) - and sewn/riveted/ etc.
4. Any information regarding what type of rifle, serial or year code that the sling was related to.
5. photos especially!

OK, I must get ready for work. Hope you guys run with this if & when you can!

Adam

[81police]

I'm not sure how anyone could determine what style of M8/81 sling would have been factory original unless there are catalogs showing in some detail what sling was used

We are fortunate enough to have photographs of NIB Model 81 with factory installed sling eyelets and swivels. In fact, the box is marked under special equipment "sling strap". Also, the factory was pretty consistent on the front & rear swivel location, so if a swivel on a rifle is found that does not match these locations (and many of them don't) this is a dead giveaway for an aftermarket job...regardless of the type of sling that's on the gun.

[Adam Lee]

I will provide an EXAMPLE of a sling I have (however, from an UNKNOWN rifle) to get the ball rolling.

1. Markings, stampings, manufacturer identification of any type.
NONE VISIBLE
2. Type of "claws" - brass, steel, alloy; riveted, brazed, etc. - if used with your sling.
Alloy composition, brass and metal, riveted with two rivets
3. Length and width of sling - and whether the slings are in 1 or 2 or more parts.
Long half sling - 47" long, and 1" wide (nominal); short half sling - 23" long, and 1" wide
4. Sling "keepers" used - how many (1 or 2) - and sewn/riveted/ etc.
One "keeper", double rivet construction
4. Any information regarding what type of rifle, serial or year code that the sling was related to.
NONE - this EXAMPLE is a gun show find I came across that serves as an EXAMPLE of M1907-type leather sling under discussion. It is probably a total guess, but may have been made anytime from 1940-1970. No evidence of "made in Japan" ink stamps.
5. photos especially!

[Adam Lee]

Been too busy at work to visit much here, but I have a minute.

On eBay there have been a good number of examples of "vintage leather slings" which are the type we are talking about here - with some darn good prices.

Just a tip for anyone looking for a 1930's-1960's era M1907-style double-claw leather sling for their rifle or shotgun.

Saw a pair of oldies together - a Hunter and a Straight Shooter brand. Also saw several that were not identified, but in good shape and some with the "floral" design (cordovan? I forget the name...corosso? help me out here...)

Couple from older Winchester 64's and such, same idea.

Have a great day/weekend all! Getting chilly here in VA, finally. Nice to get the humidity knocked down a notch!

Adam

[Roger]

Hey Adam,
I have at least 2 or 3 vintage sling straps,but I have a terrible time getting any good pics done. Winter is near here in Iowa too, so maybe I'll have more time to get some pics of them done. They're mostly on m-8 s. None on 81 s that i can remember.
That's what happens when you get old and have too many guns. Too many guns!! What an idiot, I can't believe I even said that!! Anyways,
Thanks,Roger

[Adam Lee]

Guys - let's take some pics of our slings.

Adam