newbie with a value question

[chickenpants]

I was searching the 81 and came across this board . I am looking for value of a model 81 Remington police from Brush mountain prison I have not seen it in person but have allot of pictures the gun does not have the magazine but he says they have it if they can find it

does this look correct ? I know the engraving will look different but something looks off about it

thanks in advance

[81police]

chickenpants,

Welcome to the forums. For whatever reason your pictures did not post, so i was not able to review them.

I know of one Brushy Mountain Prison "Special Police" 81 in a private collection. As you can see below the markings "POLICE GUN - PROPERTY OF" are a tad different than what you see on others. To my eyes, those markings appear to be hand stamped. One might think this suspect since the markings on almost all other guns were roll stamped, but this Brushy Police gun wasn't manufactured until May, 1949...or 7 years after the majority of Police gun. It is my thought that after so many years had passed, the roll stamping dies were lost or gone altogether, so Remington did as best they could with hand stamping. Also, this Brushy rifle has all the appropriate "Special Police" features; extended forearm, correctly placed sling eyelets, correctly modified internals, and even an original Police hooks and sling. To my recollection this gun came with 2 non-matching 15 round magazines.

Hopefully you can reattach photos and we can let you know.

[chickenpants]

not sure what happened to the pictures so lets try this again




I have allot of pictures of the gun and will see it in person tonight hopefully

comparing the two this one still looks off to me if there is more I can check I will do so .
My main question is if this is a true police gun what would be the value without the magazine

[81police]

based upon those photographs and the very close serial number to the other Bushy Mountain gun, I'd say this is an original "Special Police" rifle. Even though the markings are odd, being hand stamped, they are consistent with the other Brushy Mountain gun which is 100% authentic.

Value w/out a magazine? I don't know the overall condition the rifle first off, but a value is difficult because very few actually sell w/out a magazine. Maybe $1500-$2500 range. That might be high, but Police guns w/ magazines have sold for twice as much (or more!).

Anybody else got ideas on value? Jack1653, I know you have a better handle on this than me!!!!!!!!!

[S and S HUNTCLUB]

My brother & I were contacted in December of 2012, regarding a Brushy Mountain Special Police rifle that came with two "non-matching" magazines. At that time the gentleman was trying to determine if the rifle was authentic/original and was inquiring about what the value may be.

We were quite intrigued about a Model 81 Special Police rifle from 1949, being that it was so far out of the normal production period... so we asked for pictures. (See Attached Photos.)

The rifle did not have any documentation showing that it came from the Brushy Mountain Prison, other than the sloppy hand engraved lettering on the receiver and two 15 round Special Police magazines that were not numbers matching to the rifle.

The question here is whether or not these 1949 period Brushy Mountain Prison rifles are 100% original and authentic Special Police Model 81's???

The pictures provided by "chickenpants" show another variation of hand engraved receiver markings that are out of the norm and inconsistent with what we all know as "True Authentic and Original" Special Police rifles .

Maybe these are factory rifles???? But, they certainly do not match the what we all know as the "True Factory Produced" Model 81 Special Police rifles.

In the past 4-5 years, the prices of the POE Model 8's & Special Police Model 81's have sky rocketed. We have also seen & heard of numerous carbine's & Police conversion's, with reproduced stocks and fore-ends. All somebody needs is an original in their hands & with a little knowledge, its easy to fabricate the parts needed to convert a standard fixed magazine Model 81 to accept a authentic 15 round Special Police magazine, add the reproduction extended fore-end, some authentic sling eye-lets and a faux leather sling and you have a Special Police rifle that looks like the real thing to a novice! They are neat to see I must say, But... Will these conversions & carbines become part of the "Factory Authentic Original Remington's" in time? I sure hope not!

In ten to fifteen years, what will these variations do to the value of an original Remington POE Model 8 or a an original Special Police Model 81?

They are "Certainly Not" what we know to be authentic originals from Remington Factory Publications, especially since non of the Brushy Mountain rifles have had numbers matching magazines and just recently started to hit the market. Do we give these rifles the "Credibility of an Original", just because it "May Be Legit"! Do we speculate, just because someone has one and they said its 100% authentic???? Maybe it could very well be that these rifles are original factory Special Police rifles, but whose to say? Won't the speculation drive the prices of an original down?

I personally am getting a little tired of hearing the speculations on the authenticity of some of these firearms. The facts of what we know from the factory originals and their limited production is what makes these Police rifles collectible & valuable.

If all of the information that one has in hand, DOES NOT ADD UP TO WHAT WE ALL KNOW IS FACT, then its best to proceed with caution and keep what we all know to be true in mind, when purchasing a rifle that does not smell quite right.

The 1949 Brushy Mountain Model 81's sure do make for a great story. I personally would need much more information to spend a good sum of money on a Brushy Mountain rifle, especially when non of them have been presented with numbers matching magazines, nor with the factory roll stamping or in any of the Remington history records to date. Do ya'll think that the Remington Craftsman were that sloppy with their engraving techniques? Where's the consistency and the pride in workmanship that we have seen in the past rifles and grown to admire throughout our collecting history?

I would proceed with caution and know the facts, before speculating on whether these Brushy Mountain rifles are legit. It's my opinion that things just don't smell quite right regarding these rifles!

All I can say is that we have seen many firearms that were converted fakes, hit the market in the past. It will not be long before somebody starts to ponder the same thoughts, regarding the Remington Model 8's & Model 81's

Enjoy Life, Bob @ S and S HUNTCLUB

[chickenpants]

thanks for all the info that's why I came to the experts . The story I got on the gun is this and a couple Winchester 22's were found in the shed of a relative after he passed . He says he had the magazine at one time but does not know what happened to it over the years I am going to look at it tonight along with a 62a and a model 90-22wrf. is it worth the risk?

[Sarge756]

I for one will bow out of "expert" status on this as my experience doesn`t include the police rifles. I do however have experience with A4 Springfield sniper rifles and have seen some very clever clones that fooled some of the "experts". Have also dealt over the years with old "muscle cars" and the smell test that Bob mentioned in his reply applies there too.
I like the "found in an old shed" story. Brings to mind a 64 GTO that I almost bought several years ago.... It was "found in an "old barn" and represented as 100% with only 37,000 original miles. Looked good and the $20,000 asking seemed reasonable. Still not an "expert" but with more than a passing knowledge of GTO`s I did some close inspection. Turned out to be a 64Tempest with all the GTO badges and trim and a motor that had been swapped out of a 65 Bonneville.
You ask,"Is it worth the risk?".......As long as it is YOUR money it`s okay with me.

Joe

[81police]

great info from everybody, so glad we have a forum where members aim to help out with questions! Thank y'all!

chickenpants, it appears the forearm on that gun is a real Special Police forearm, and probably not a recent production replacement. It's age, wear, color, etc. are consistent with the original wood stock. The sling eyelets are not only correct POE items but also installed in the correct locations. Brushy Mountain Prison owned "Special Police" edition Remington Model 11 shotguns circa early 1940's production), which although had roll stamped "POLICE GUN - PROPERTY OF", they were hand engraved identically to this Model 81, "STATE OF TENNESSEE BRUSHY MOUNTAIN PRISON".

If it was a fraud, it probably would have been done a long time ago (when the rifle's didn't carry the premium they do now) by someone who knew exactly what POE rifles were meant to look like (these guns were mostly obscure to the public until Henwood published his book) with parts that were not easily available.

As a side note, Henwood himself wrote, "Prior to the discovery of the 1947 Remington parts list, the author doubted that many were manufactured after World War II. Now it seems likely that it was regularly produced up until the Model 81 was discontinued in 1950" (p.125)

The hand stamped markings are unusual and inconsistent no doubt (though consistent with the other Brushy Mountain gun). Remington wasn't known for sloppy work like S&S mentioned, but we do know Remington was known to cut corners towards the end of Model 81 production. But at least some of the POE features of this gun strongly support factory work. Also keep in mind there is a lot of variation in POE guns. We've seem some that are undoubtedly authentic guns, but didn't even have "POLICE GUN - PROPERTY OF" roll stamped on the receiver. Although all were advertised w/ a 15 round magazine, quite a few have been found with non-detachable 5 round magazines, but where "POLICE" marked and configured accordingly. I've seen a Model 870 pump shotgun, which wasn't introduced until 1950 and was never mentioned as part of the Police Gun lineup, with "POLICE GUN - PROPERTY OF" stamped. At one time it was said the Police Guns were sold ONLY to recognized law enforcement agencies, well we've seen at least two that were sold to private corporations for "security". The quality of department hand engraving varies considerably on Police Guns as well (look at KY Highway rifles!). Just some examples of outside the norm.

I hope this information helps you out, that's what this forum us about. Taking many perspectives and making a decision yourself. But like S and S HUNTCLUB indicated, if you don't personally feel confident of the rifle, paying a premium wouldn't be wise.

Best of luck with it!

[jim8008]

Maybe Tennessee did not want to pay for stamping and they were done at Brushy Mountain Prison.

[S and S HUNTCLUB]

After seeing the additional pictures that "chickenpants" posted after my first reply, I would have to agree with Cam that this rifle does have some authentic looking features. The fore-end, the condition of the wood and the sling eye-lets certainly appear to be factory work. I also noticed on the barrel jacket head, an additional factory stamping. Its very hard to make out, but it looks like _ ZZ 4. I can not make out the first letter and I could be mistaken on the others too. Could it be that the rifle was sent back to Remington and reworked to its current configuration?

Regarding the comment by jim8008, Maybe the State didn't want to pay for the engraving and they were engraved at the Brushy Mountain Prison. The engraving certainly looks like some of the shotty tattoo work that was often done by the prisoners themselves.

James Earl Ray, the assassin of Martin Luther King Jr. was housed there. James Earl Ray escaped the prison with six other inmates on June 10, 1977, by climbing over the fence. He was later captured in the mountains, less than three miles from the prison. Could this rifle have been used to recapture James Earl Ray? It would certainly add to the story of the Brushy Mountain Prison Rifles.

chickenpants, If its possible, you should check the shed where the rifle was found and see if you can locate the 15 round magazine. It may be sitting inside a fresh crate of 35 Rem ammo.

I too like the input from everyone & it's nice to see the barn finds!

Enjoy Life, Bob @ S and S HUNTCLUB

[jack1653]

Hey Guys,

I thought I might as well join the discussion on this subject. I would like to start by saying that this topic has had some very good responses from knowledgeable people here on the forum. There have been some very salient perspectives presented on this topic and each in their own right have valid merits and cautions to the newcomer and perspective buyers of these Police Models. The old saying of “let the buyer beware” is appropriate for all of us but especially for the new enthusiast who can get caught up in the moment.

I would have to agree with 81police as to his comments about the value he posted. I think he is fairly close to what I would value the gun without seeing it in person. If you do not have a magazine, you do not have a police model and I would probably quote a lower figure. Again, How bad do you want it?

I have been asked many times over the years about the value of the Model 8 & 81 rifles and my answer is always the same; it all depends. It is the same answer that all of you have made when you were asked. I have made it a practice to never price another man’s rifle. I have enough respect for the seller not to insult them and take the chance of missing an opportunity to add another rifle to the collection. I expect the seller to give me a price and I will either accept it or reject it. If there is an opportunity to negotiate then I may have the opportunity to point out why the price is or is not in line with the going price of the rifles. Most of the knowledgeable collectors know what I am saying when I try to explain the various nuances that can affect the price of a rifle. I would like to think that I have a fairly good understanding of these rifles and enough experience to know what a reasonable price for a rifle should be. Having said this I will be the first to say that what a rifle is worth has nothing at all to do with the purchase price especially for a collector. I can tell all of you on more than one occasion that I have paid more for a rifle than what it was worth in order to fill a niche in the collection. I would go so far as to say that there is not a one of you who haven’t done the same thing. That is what makes this hobby so darn right exciting. This is why “jackitis” can be darn right dangerous!!

As to the discussion about the Police model from Brushy Mountain I would only add a few comments. Bob did a fantastic job of explaining the issues about this particular Police Model. The pictures that he shared with the forum is the rifle that is now in my collection. I did as much checking as I could before buying the rifle. I called the guru, 81police, on the Police Models and we had several discussions about the rifle and we both came to the conclusion that it was indeed a legitimate Police Model in spite of the lettering on the receiver. There is nothing available to the best of my knowledge that would counter the argument that it is not original.

Bob mentioned that there was no documentation about the authenticity of the rifle and I would agree with him. I would go so far as to say I have never seen any documentation as to the legitimacy of any of the Police Models. I have Police Models from several agencies and I have yet to receive any paperwork as to the authenticity of the rifle. The closest thing that I have ever heard of was a list of rifles for the Los Angeles Sherriff Office and there appeared to be some credibility to those rifles that were issued to that agency. The frustrating thing about the LA agency is that most of the magazines were not serial numbered to the rifle. Speculation is that during cleaning magazines were interchanged but that is only speculation.

There is another topic that I would like to comment on concerning the Police Models. Several years ago, I submitted a paper about the conversion of standard model 8 and 81 rifles to Police Model replicas. If you have not seen this paper, I think you may find it enlightening. You can view the document by going to this link on the forum: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=637&p=6777&hilit=V ... f690#p6777.

If there is someone to blame for making replicas of the Police Models it will have to be me. As you may have noted in the article, I take no responsibility for the carbine conversions. Pete had figured that out long before I knew him. I will accept the responsibility for having Pete convert the first Carbine to hold the POE 15-shot magazine. If you would like to see it in action, you can go to this link where you can see 81police and yours truly burning some ammunition. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2293&p=6963&hilit=y ... 14e3#p6963.

At the time I wrote the article, I had no intention of going any further with the conversions. However, boredom took over and I made the decision to add more conversions to my collection. With Pete’s direction, I was able to modify the pinning process and call these by a different name. Over the course of several months I was able to add a conversion for each caliber in both the model 8 and 81 including the .300 Savage. To the best of my knowledge I am the only person to have a conversion for each caliber that will hold the POE 15-shot magazine. And yes, I have a separate magazine for each conversion. These rifles function just like the original Police Models but they do not have any agency stamping on the left side of the receivers. Here are pictures of these conversions; viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2467#p7865.

Thank you for your support and if you have any comments or concerns, please feel free to ask me. I dearly love these old rifles and as many of you know I will take some liberties to make these rifles even more special to me. I will always try to assist new owners in getting to know their rifle a little better. I get a lot of requests for parts and people wanting to buy rifles but I am not able to fulfill all these requests because I am a collector and not a seller.

Kindest Regards,

jack1653

[chickenpants]

it is amazing the response I have gotten I want to thank everyone . I did get a chance to see the rifle and it is in fair shape the blueing is better than expected but the stock is rough (as seen in the pictures) then Guy that owns it is away so it will be awhile before a deal is tried to be worked out

[chickenpants]

well I did not get it but My friend did that was wanting me to buy them. Once I showed him this and he saw the gun he bought it and the 2 Winchester 22's . He is debating on selling it or not . I don't know what he has in it but I know he got it reasonable . based on the pictures above do you think it would be unreasonable to ask $1500 without the magazine ?

[S and S HUNTCLUB]

Hello chickenpants, Sounds like your friend made a nice purchase. I personally think that $1,500.00 would be a steal on a Model 81 Special Police without a magazine. They have fetched $3,500.00 in past sales without the 15 round magazines.

Enjoy Life, Bob @ S and S HUNTCLUB