Browning A5 or Remington 11

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ctgodog
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Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by ctgodog »

Which is better? Advantages and or disadvantages!! Quality? Reliability?
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remcrazy
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by remcrazy »

Dear CTGODOG,

The A5 and Model 11 are nearly identical in makeup and details. They were both manufactured from the same John Browning specs and designs. I have had both and would be hard pressed to tell anyone which is better. Perhaps the Browning A5 is more refined and maybe better polished/finished but, the old 11 is still pretty nice and a robust shotgun. The Brownings can be quite a bit more expensive, especially the older models with the rounded pistol grip stocks! If I had to choose one over the other for looks, reliabilty, and general overall, I would choose the 11 only because I'm partial to the old Remingtons! It all boils down to likes/dislikes, what you feel is better suited to your personal taste and collecting/shooting requirements.

If you're still in a quandry, perhaps do a bit of research & comparison of the two. List your likes/dislikes and draw a conclusion based on the facts you have produced. Another thing to bear in mind is condition! The better the condition, the more expensive! If a beater suits your needs for general hunting/shooting purposes, then certainly find a descent/relaible functioning one in either A5 or 11. If collectibility is the issue, better find the very best you can afford! They will only go up in value but, a shooter is a shooter and only worth whatever going rate for such is.

Remcrazy.
ctgodog wrote:Which is better? Advantages and or disadvantages!! Quality? Reliability?
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Sarge756
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by Sarge756 »

Ditto to Remcrazy`s reply. Only real difference other than the finish and perhaps a higher grade wood is that the Rem 11 lacks the magazine cutoff switch that is on the A5. While handy to allow changing out a chambered round say buckshot for a load of 8`s on the A5, you can accomplish the same thing by not fully retracting the bolt on a Mod 11 and easing the chambered round out with your fingers and dropping the other load in. Don`t recall it ever being a big issue in the field and I`ve hunted both of them for a bunch of years.
".......ain't many troubles that a man cain't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."
ctgodog
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by ctgodog »

12 gauge vs 16 gauge......??
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DWalt
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by DWalt »

There is also a Savage-made humpback shotgun (Model 720) that is nearly identical to the Remington Model 11. Remington actually made this shotgun for FN and marketed it as a Browning during the Nazi invasion of Belgium. I agree, aside from the greater snob appeal of the Browning, and its higher price, the Model 11 is equivalent to it. I've owned two Model 11s (12 and 20) and I'm sorry I sold them.
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by kenhwind »

I had a Browning "Light Twelve A5" and a Remington M11 20 gauge. I liked them both. The Browning is a bit more refined, receiver engraving and the magazine cutoff. Judging by todays prices if I were to get another I think I'd go with the Remington. Not because I don't like the Browning I'm a bit more partial to Remingtons.

12 vs 16? If I found a nice M11 in 16 gauge and finances permitting I'd buy it.
KEN
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by sighthound »

My shotgun use started as a kid growing up on a farm during the 1930s and using my Fathers 12 ga Model 11 Remington, nicest shotgun in the valley and it helped put much meat on the table and elimate many predators. Low base ammo was about a dollar per box and high base a little more. Have collections of both Remington 11s, FNs for european sales and Brownings for US sales. Function wise I see no difference, the mag cutoff is handy, if you want an 11 with that feature, then buy an American Browning. Collectors put a price premium on Brownings and as others have mentioned the FN Brownings have a nicer fit and finish. Incidently, Brownings first 20 gauge was an American Browning made by Remington. As to the 16 vs 12 gauge the 16 gauge ammo is more costly, with 16 gauge FNs or Brownings be careful of chamber length, early guns with 65mm (2-1/2") chambers it is not advisable to use 2-3/4" ammo, US manufacturers loaded 2-9/16" ammo for short chambers, 2-1/2" is still availabe from Britian and some South American countries and sold in some US stores.
A question for A5 collectors, Savage made guns seem to be the poor relatives of the family, however, I have a 12 gauge with monte carlo stock, pad, beavertail forend and ribbed full choke barrel and different engraving pattern, also a 16 gauge with same features except cylinder choke and usual engraving and have never been able to find any information on them, maybe just special order or what? Only ones I have ever seen. Help, Jerry
ctgodog
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by ctgodog »

One more small question....I see that there are some repair kits available for sale for the A5 and the Rem 11.....springs, washers, etc., "Are they needed often for repair of these shotguns?"

Clint
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imfuncity
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by imfuncity »

I have some of each A5, M11, & Savage most dated pre WWII. I'm not much of a gun connoisseur nor a gunsmith and I can easily be fooled; just got'em when I had the $'s and they became available - none are pristine but all used and very useable. Maybe I've been lucky but I've had no problems and have needed no parts. I also don't use them regularly for hundreds of rounds, just infrequently, pick one or two up and go blasting - great fun, no issues, great guns.

Side note: I have found that with Savage and M11 - the barrels and a lot of parts seem to interchange but that the same is not true with A5s. I have not done a lot of smith'n, mainly compared the diagrams and exchanged barrels for length.
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
ctgodog
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by ctgodog »

In my research and comparisons, I found this interesting piece. Someone mention awhile back about these shotguns having a rare straight stock, and I ran across one. Looks like a nice one...and the seller seems to know about the fact that it is rare by the price he is asking, but it is an A5, so maybe he is not to high for the going market value.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =230053630

Clint
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DWalt
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by DWalt »

I believe, but am not 100% certain, that Savage and Remington parts are largely, if not completely, interchangeable. I know for sure the stock and fore-end are.

Back when I had a M11 in 20 gauge, the only item I had to replace was the action spring (not the recoil spring around the magazine tube). There's nothing to that replacement, just remove the buttstock, drop the old spring out and replace it with a new one. My problem at that time was that the bolt was sluggish on closing. A new spring fixed it. I have read that ejector replacement (on the barrel extension) is sometimes necessary, but that never happened to me.
ctgodog
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by ctgodog »

How come there are so many more A5's for sale than Rem 11???? Did they make more A5' than the Rem? If so, why are they so much more $$$? Shouldn't the supply and demand factor come into play?

Clint














How come there are so many more A5's for sale than the Rem 11?
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sighthound
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by sighthound »

Both Browning and Remington made straight grip (English Grip) models, popular in europe and with trap shooters, Browning's original FN A5s had this style, Remington's 1905-1910 pre 11 models included their No. 3 trap Grade, Model 11C Trap models incorporated the straight grip and apparently were available as special order on others, Brownings apparently could be had with either style. Do not see either make often and they do command a premium. Late Remington 11C guns seem to be custom shop pieces and spendy.
As to why more Brownings are listed and at higher prices, I think supply and demand, greater numbers of collectors, etc, and Belgian guns were made until 1976 while Model 11s ceased in 1948 so more of them, both are excellent products, Savage seems to be the poor relation but also good sound products. I will try to get some pictures and have them posted.
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imfuncity
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by imfuncity »

In my neck of the woods (rather well known for duck hunting over the rice fields), it is not unreasonable to see 20+ A5s, at the small, local gun shows; mainly 12ga shooters but high quality and different flavors also. As noted, often M11s are absent and when found, go for less - strange indeed. :?
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
ctgodog
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by ctgodog »

This is a nice one.....I want it!!!!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =231122133

Clint
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Sarge756
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by Sarge756 »

Clint,That is one pretty shotgun. Go ahead and bid I promise I won`t try to outbid you. Noticed the same seller has a clean 20Ga. A5 that is a little closer to my limit depending on what the reserve is. Joe
".......ain't many troubles that a man cain't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."
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imfuncity
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by imfuncity »

Oh the temptation of it all... but I'll resist. Let me know when you get it, I'll come up and shoot it FOR you. :twisted:
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
sighthound
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by sighthound »

Hello Clint,
Have noticed from your posts that you have an interest in Model 11s and the straight (english grip) guns, have tried to post pictures, not successful, if you would care to provide street address, I can pony express some pictures from my collection. Thanks,
Jerry King
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by Fowlgunner »

Clint,

I'd be very careful of the gun on gunbroker.

I do not believe it to be Remington engraving and the wood is not consistant with the Grade being represented in quality (Finest European/Circassin Walnut) or checkering pattern.

Will
DWalt
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by DWalt »

I went to the local gun show here in San Antonio today. I usually don't look much at shotguns (I already have a lifetime supply), but I took a special look this time for humpbacks. I found eight Browning A5s (7 in 12 ga, one in 16 ga). "Asking" prices ran from $350 to $600. All were in reasonably good cosmetic condition, and prices weren't commensurate with condition, as the one for which the owner was asking $350 was close to the top in appearance. I saw NO Model 11s or Savage 720s. I guess that says something about what's on the market here.
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by Sarge756 »

Thanks Clint!!! You started this subject and perked my interest for another 11 or A5. Didn`t have to wait long to scratch the itch as I bought an A5 listed on another forum`s free classifieds at a reasonable price.This one is an "American Browning". Made by Remington for FN while the nasty Nazis occupied Belgium during WWll. In fact Remington made them for FN from 1940 till 1952.This one was made in 1948. A pretty basic 12Ga, full choked 28" barrel,no rib and of course has a pad but thankfully no Polychoke.Metal is full patina (even coat of ugly rust) with only a few shallow pits.Wood is decent too without any cracks or someone`s initials carved in it.
As if I needed another project this one is in process of a full polish and rust-blue.One panel of the checkering needs a bit of recutting and the wood will be refinished. I`ll post some before and after photos when I complete it.
Joe
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With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."
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imfuncity
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by imfuncity »

Problem is I don't have an itch, I have more shotguns then I'm ever going to "need", and... :? (I know, I know, so what's the point?) Cause of this thread, I too was looking, saw a very nice A5 with good engraving, continued thinking about it as I grazed the gun tables at the local show, return in about 15min and it wassss gone :cry: I knew 350 was way-good for a 90+%, at least where I live. Now I'm thinking I have the itch - since I let that one get away. :cry: (My wife is calling it something different then an itch!?!)
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
ctgodog
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by ctgodog »

I have found a few A5's on Gunbroker that I wouldn't mind having...went to the new Cabella's in Springfield, Or., and they had some pretty nice A5's, but not any Rem 11's. Most of the A5's were in the $700-$1000 range. All the Model 8's and 81's were pretty nice. They had a very nice 25 Rem for under $400.

So I am still looking....! ($$$)

Clint
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by ctgodog »

DWalt wrote: A pretty basic 12Ga, full choked 28" barrel,no rib and of course has a pad but thankfully no Polychoke.
Are poly chokes bad?? I am trying to learn and understand about chokes. I think my research has given me a pretty good idea about chokes, but the poly choke is an adjustable "one fits all" system. Do they cause problems or do they not work as advertised?

Clint
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by DWalt »

A Poly Choke (or any of several other brands of variable chokes and choke tubes) is not bad, per se, but they will seriously degrade the value of an otherwise collectible vintage shotgun, such as a Winchester Model 12, Remington Model 11, Browning A5, etc.. Typically, installation involved cutting back the length of the barrel (essentially cutting off the original choked section) and silver-soldering on a device. It was normally done by gunsmiths or manufacturers of the choke devices to convert a standard single-choked barrel to multi-choke capability. Typically, the barrel was also reblued at the time of installation due to the damage of the original finish where the device was installed. Some manufacturers offered these as factory options, and if one of those can be verified as being factory-installed by the shotgun manufacturer, the value would not be diminished as much. They work OK, but are somewhat unsightly.

It's about the same value reduction as a reblued gun. However, if you want a shooter and not a collectible, a shotgun with a variable choke can be a fine performer, and you can often pick up an excellent gun at a great price.

With the advent of screw-in choke tubes, I doubt the earlier multi-choke devices are even made at present.
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by sighthound »

On the matter of factory installed choke devices, on page 109 of Browning Auto 5 Shotguns by H M Shirley and Anthony Vanderlinden it states Brownings customer service can usually confirm if they installed a Poly Choke, another way to confirm is to unscrew the choke end and look for Browning's dealer number #11 or #9 for FN. Cutts compensators were used on Skeet Model A5s and were sold by Browning with this system installed, again the book says the best way to be sure is to ask their customer service department. All this, however, does not provide any help for Remington 11s, but maybe there is a way to get info from Remington since Poly Choke apparently may have assigned the numbers for Browning, FN and possibly others. Another way I have seen on Savage 740C model skeet guns is that the choke device (Cutts) is attached to an enlarged collar which was made solid as part of the barrel.
Yes, pads and pickles do nothing for collectors, but sure helped shooters and the guns were made to be shot. I have both and love them all. Jerry
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by Sarge756 »

Clint,
Good are Bad for a polychoke was answered well by the previous replies. They are just darned ugly .It is a shame that some mighty fine guns have been butchered by what was considered at the time an innovative and useful invention. That being said of the add on chokes that you will come across the Lyman Cutts compensator seems to be less of a negative in my experience than the Polychokes when considering value of the gun. I`m doing a very nice Mod 12 for a friend that was passed down to him from his Grandfather. Engraved with a straight English stock (pretty wood and checkering) but alas has a Cutts compensator. The detractor with this one is that it only came with the spreader choke.He wants to use it for different game and sporting clays , so as well as a deep cleaning and repair of a few bruises to the stock and checkering I volunteered to put together a complete set of choke tubes for him. Fleabay to the rescue and now have five tubes from full to spreader that will put him in business.I built a leather case to house them so they don`t get lost like the last set. I was surprised at the cost of doing this.Seems Brownell`s bought the remaining Lyman stock and they are long gone.Scarcity makes the price go up.This set was a Ben Franklin.
To add to your learning you may note that I mentioned that the A5 I had bought had a "pad".This in most cases is a negative when considering the value of a firearm unless it was a factory original installed . My Brother and I mused what we would do if we could go back in time. One of our missions would be to find the guy that invented the polychoke along with Frank Pachmayr and those recoil pads and Roy Weatherby and the shiny stocks with the diamonds and do-dads and give them "an offer they couldn`t refuse" thereby saving many a fine gun from being butchered. Joe
".......ain't many troubles that a man cain't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by 81police »

I'll chime in with some agreement, I'm not a fan of the Polychoke, but have a '63 A5 Light 12 with a Cutts Compensator and an older "Browning" marked recoil pad. I was lucky enough that the shotgun came with 4 chokes. I ended up getting a reproduction Cutts 12ga choke wrench to go along with it. It's a pretty light recoiling shotgun feels more like a 20ga. I've always thought the Cutts looked somewhat attractive.
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by sighthound »

Related Trivia, If you have shotgun with a Cutts comp and are interested, look for the wooden box with Lyman's name plate and containg extra choke tubes and a wrench fastened to the back. These apparently were available containing a basic set of 3 extra tubes up to many, I have seen pictures showing boxed sets containg 6 extra tubes. One 3 tube set I have is book valued at more than the gun. Will see if I can get a picture posted. Jerry
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by imfuncity »

Very interesting discussion - I didn't even have enough information to ask about this stuff :o

Jerry, send away, I'll get them up.
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by DWalt »

No question, the Lyman Cutts is at the head of the pack, and if I found any Model 12 or A5 with a Cutts and a couple of extra tubes, I wouldn't turn it down at anything like a reasonable price. I had a boss at one time who was an accomplished wing shot on doves, quail, and woodcock that swore by his 12 ga A5 with Cutts and a spreader tube in heavier cover. He was also a great crow shot with a full choke tube. He seldom missed. I seem to remember his barrel had been cut off to about 20" for faster handling.

Is there such a thing as a spreader in the newer screw-in choke tubes?
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by ctgodog »

What is the difference between a 12 gauge and a "light 12 gauge? "Spreader tube"???

Clint
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by DWalt »

I guess "Light" could refer to either the shotshell load or the weight of the shotgun, I'd guess the former (i.e., less shot mass).

As I remember, the spreader tube (which screws into the front of the Cutts comp) has something like a shallow pitch rifling in it that gives a spin component to the shot string, opening the pattern up so you don't shred a bird to ribbons on a close-in shot in heavy cover. Woodcock (and some other birds) are often found in heavy cover, and depending on your reflexes, a shot might be taken at 10-15 yards or even less. If you can't get onto them by then, they are gone.

There are also special spreader loads (not well known in the US) which use flattened or deformed shot, cubical shot, or various types of spacers in the shot column to give a similar effect. These are more typically used in Europe. Reclaimed shot (mined from trap and skeet ranges) makes a pretty good spreader load.
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by imfuncity »

Interestinger and interestinger. :)
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by DWalt »

I don't know how well a Cutts with spreader tube would work with modern shells. Back in the day of the Cutts, most shotshells has no one-piece plastic shot protecting wads. All they used were just felt base wads. Modern one-piece plastic wads weren't generally available until the early 1960s, although some earlier shells (back in the paper case days) did use strips of paper or plastic around the shot column to protect the shot as it traveled down the barrel. Shells from the 1950s and earlier had nothing like this.
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by sighthound »

Just noticed there is a Lyman Cutts boxed set w/5 tubes on fleabay now with only a couple of hours left in case anyone is interested and has not noticed, Jerry
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by Sarge756 »

Jerry,Thanks for the the heads up on the Fleabay auction .I was in the running but it passed my limit and went for $162 + shipping. Probably not that bad considering it had an original wood box marked Cutts and an original wrench.Detractor was the duplication of one tube size and a tube missing. This would mean a search for two tubes to complete the set.
Cam, The set I put together for my friend for the Mod 12 has one marked Lyman SPR .Also have another tube unmarked name but has .824 stamped on it. They appear to be the same .Neither of these have any grooves or rifling that you described so don`t think the use of modern shotshells with plastic collars would be an issue. I would describe these tubes
as having a flared opening at the business end .Sort of a mild "Blunderbuss" configuration. As Imfuncity would say "Interesting". I`m including photos of the tube set and the case I made.I hope they will come through without being blown up to 300% or something.I posted some earlier of a 99 stock and do not have a clue what button I punched in error.
Joe
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More from the "red table" guy

Post by imfuncity »

From Sighthound...
Remington 11S, 20ga, short 13"LOP w/ pad, Lyman Cutts Choke set with box & wrench.
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Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by imfuncity »

I posted some (photos) earlier of a 99 stock and do not have a clue what button I punched in error.
No problem Sarge - we can certainly see the detail checkering on the 99. :o
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Those Hammerin' Humpbacks

Post by imfuncity »

"But how do you get them to shoot it?" I do enjoy a story. http://www.gundigest.com/gun-collecting ... id=3576355
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
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Sarge756
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by Sarge756 »

Imfuncity Thanks for the Gun Digest website. It brought to mind one of the offshoots from the A5/Mod 11 the "Widowmaker' the 1911 Winchester.The video of it being fired and the evident heavy recoil is something I have first hand knowledge of. I bought one of them several years back just to say I had one. We have talked about the tendency of the forend splitting on the A5`s and 11`s and repair procedure.You want to see splits get one of those widowmakers. The article is correct that about the only thing that is shared with John Browning`s design is the long-recoil and a semblance of a humpback.Inside they are totally different. The buttstock is interesting.Rather than one piece it is three slabs that are held with glue and wood dowels.I`ve never read any explanation of why this was done and can only suspect that one piece buttstocks would have split as bad as the forends.Perhaps the article in the 2011 GunDigest addresses this question. The takedown design is a neat feature.One knurled screw at the hump and it comes apart. Joe
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DWalt
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by DWalt »

I haven't read the 2011 GD yet. I usually am a couple of years behind as I wait until the older GD issues are remaindered very cheaply.

Anyway, I would imagine that the recoil characteristics of the 1911 are violent and would eventually split a conventional walnut buttstock. I don't know if plywood existed at the time of the introduction of the 1911, but the stock could be considered a type of plywood. The core, or middle section, of the buttstock could be of a much tougher and stronger wood without much figure (I don't know what, maybe hickory) covered with thin outer walnut panels having more visual appeal. The pegs were probably necessary because wood adhesives of the day were not nearly as good as those of today. That would be my guess.

The Winchester design occurred after John Browning left Winchester under less than amicable circumstances, and is so different from the A5 because it had to avoid all of Browning's patents.
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imfuncity
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Re: Browning A5 or Remington 11

Post by imfuncity »

"The Winchester design occurred after John Browning left Winchester under less than amicable circumstances, and is so different from the A5 because it had to avoid all of Browning's patents."

Had a gunshop owner showing me a 1911 a couple of years back, as he knew I was interested in the M11 and A5 had read of the Winchester and Browning split thus was curious. As he was reaching for the 1911 Winchester, he told me it was called the Widowmaker, I ask him why, and at that very moment as he gently set the butt on his glass counter top it slam fired!! I said never mind! :o
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine
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