Pre Model 11

Talk about things other than the Model 8's and 81's
Post Reply
ROBOPUMP
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:05 am
Location: Houston, TX

Pre Model 11

Post by ROBOPUMP » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:41 pm

Yeah, this was the Humpback I loved first. I just bought this "pre Model 11". The price was right and the shipping cheap.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =211670146.
So, I guess the Remington Self Loading rifle was a pre Model 8 until 1911 also.

This old shotgun is in excellent condition to be 106 years old. It had a broken firing pin and an incorrect buttplate. As a collector of these, I had a replacement firing pin and a repo correct buttplate that only needed sanding to fit. It was a dirty gun that I think had not been disassembled since birth. Lots of cleaning and lubricating before re-assembly. If you have ever replaced the firing pin in one of these, you know it takes taking out nearly every scew and pin in the gun. Well, if you are that far, just completely disassemble, clean and put it back together. The gun is now clean, lubricated and in very good mechanical condition. Glued all the spits and cracks in the forearm. Buttplate in amazingly good condition and serial numbered to the gun. Yes, I will shoot it.

Did you notice? It has "Cheeks". Must have been the style of furniture back then.

Does anyone have any information on the early serial numbers on these? As best I can figure from the information I have obtained, this is a first year of manufacture with a 4 digit S/N 9489(1905). I wonder if Mr. Browning was on board at Remington when it went through the line? Oddly, the old shotguns do not have the assembler's and fitter's marks like the Model 8.

User avatar
imfuncity
Posts: 1208
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:44 am
Location: 2hrs N of Sac., Tehama Co. CA

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by imfuncity » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:55 pm

I did notice yours when it was listed, watched it being stolen! Good job. Glad "one of us" got it. (He didn't do himself any favors with those pictures, but he's doing the same thing with his current auction.)

I have an M11 1927 fancy use as home defense plus a 1928 A5. I've seen and shot a pre, but you are way out of my league with your questions. But I'll be listening in, fore-shore.
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine

User avatar
Sarge756
Posts: 763
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:17 am
Location: N.Florida on the coast

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by Sarge756 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:32 pm

Good price for that one. Gluing the forends works pretty good but as you may know the weak point is at the receiver end.I have repaired dozens of A5`s and Model 11`s with the splits there. My fix in addition to gluing involves removing the strip of wood that is in the cutout inside if it is still there and replace it with a piece of Kevlar cut to fit soaked with Acraglass. Never had one come back with another split. If you do not have any Kevlar I`ve got a lifetime supply from old bullet proof vests and can part with some . I suppose fiberglas mat might work also.It`s obvious the thin wood strip and the adhesives available back when didn`t get the job done. Great guns! even though they don`t shoot soft I still enjoy them . Joe
".......ain't many troubles that a man cain't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."

User avatar
81police
Posts: 2321
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:12 pm
Location: TEXAS

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by 81police » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:22 am

Yes I like the cheeks too, what buttplate did that rifle come with? Great deal btw.
Cam Woodall
Site Co-Administrator

ROBOPUMP
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:05 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by ROBOPUMP » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:02 pm

Thanks for the suggestions on the forearm glueing and reinforcing. I know exactly what you are talking about and all my other 11's have the cross grain reinforcing "ribbon" on the inside of the receiver end of the forearm.
This one does not and did not have the groove to accommodate it. This feature must have been added later as they found out that the forearm was prone to crack in this weak area.

The butt plate was a hard plastic repo one also, but was not the right size for the butt stock. Too short and a little too wide. The kind with Remington in a rectangle at the top and cross grooves in the center.

User avatar
Sarge756
Posts: 763
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:17 am
Location: N.Florida on the coast

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by Sarge756 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:42 am

I didn`t think about the grooves not being there.Should have been a clue with it being a Pre Model 11.I did one a few years back sans groove and cut one with my trusty Dremel and cut off wheel to lay the Kevlar in. I did the stock on Winchester`s biggest mistake a Widowmaker a few years back and ended up lining about 3 or 4 inches with the Kevlar fix before I could get it to stop having the splits. Talk about a gun that will let you know when the round goes off. The A5`s and 11`s are soft compared to it. Joe
".......ain't many troubles that a man cain't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."

User avatar
81police
Posts: 2321
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:12 pm
Location: TEXAS

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by 81police » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:16 am

never shot one of those Sarge, always thought it seemed kinda strange to chamber a shell by pulling down on the barrel. Now there's a shotgun that didn't hold its value, lol.
Cam Woodall
Site Co-Administrator

User avatar
imfuncity
Posts: 1208
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:44 am
Location: 2hrs N of Sac., Tehama Co. CA

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by imfuncity » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:59 pm

I was interested in one of those guns. Had a gun shop owner showing it to me on his counter. He told me about it's name and right on clue it went off :shock: (unloaded of course), scared us both. I let him keep it!
Though defensive violence will always be “a sad necessity” in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men. - St. Augustine

sighthound
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:39 am

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by sighthound » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:50 pm

Yes, the 11s are great also, I evolved from using my fathers 11 to 8s, pre 11s have interesting history, FN A5s likely would never happened if Remingtons CEO had not died suddenly while Browning was waiting to discuss his new automatic shotgun. After Browning rejected Winchesters offer and upheaval at Remington, Browning contacted FN and reached agreement for FN A5s, later because of high US import tariffs, agreement was changed to allow Remington 11 production for US market and Remington began production of its new Autoloading Shotgun in 1905 which was produced in four models, #1 Standard grade, #2 Special grade, #3 Trap grade an #0 Riot grade. Your gun appears to be the Standard grade, confusion exists on starting serial numbers, some say 1000, others 10,000 and some 1. I have #1 Standard grade #554, have both plain and grooved forends, butt plates came in several types, REMINGTON at top with curved lettering and AUTOMATIC at bottom, REMINGTON and UMC below in a circle, several styles of this one different sizes of letters, another has REMINGTON at top and curved ARMS CO below, the Trap grade I have has a plain cross grooved worm holed horn butt plate. 1906 models have Remington info and Browning patent info on left side of receiver while 1906 and later have this on top of barrel. All have the suiscide saftey which Remington used until 1928. There are many variations for collectors from the 1905-1910 pre 11s and 1911 to 1948 model 11s. A, B, C, R, S plus engraved D, E, F, G grades for the affulent, 2 different roll engraving patterns on A and S, early with three birds on each side, later only one bird per side of receiver.
Great arms for sportsmen, too bad changing economy, drove production cost out of ability to compete, sportsmen are denied the quality these had,
Sighthound

ROBOPUMP
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:05 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by ROBOPUMP » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:23 pm

Sighthound,

You seem to be most knowledgeable on the model 11. Do you know an estimate of how many were manufactured? I do have an early "Sportsman" with a four digit serial number. It appears to me that the Sportsman started with a new set of serial numbers. So, it would be a total of how many model 11's and how many Sportsman were manufactured. I think well over a million.
What think you?

ROBOPUMP
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:05 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by ROBOPUMP » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:44 pm

Well, I just proved how you can make a complete fool out of yourself.
I have a 16 GA Sportsman with serial number 1592276 and barrel date code of LUU(1949).
And I have a 16 GA Model 11 with serial number 1574642 and a barrel date code of XSS(1947).
So, if I am correct that the Sportsman started with a new set of serial numbers, these two combined would be 3,166,918. Yeah, I think that is over a million. And that is just from the shotguns that I have. If not correct about the Sportsman being separately serial numbered, 1,592,276 is still well over a million manufactured and it is rumored that Remington made about 65,000 Brownings during WWII.

I would like to see some comments on this.

Thanks,

ROB

User avatar
gramps35
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:15 pm

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by gramps35 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:25 pm

sighthound wrote: Great arms for sportsmen, too bad changing economy, drove production cost out of ability to compete, sportsmen are denied the quality these had,
Sighthound
Looking through an old 2009 hunting mag the other day and it had a pic of some duck hunters. One of them was using an old humpback. Couldn't tell exactly which model, but it was a definite humpback.
I see people at ranges all the time with them too, I know I always take mine.
They are build to last, that's for sure.

sighthound
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:39 am

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by sighthound » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:31 am

Typo on my first post, should read 1905 has remington and Browning patent info on left side of receiver, later on barrel and nothing on receiver.
I wish I had knowledge of complete and reliable information on Remington pre 11, 11s and Sportsman models. Information I have came from Remington web page written by an advanced collector in Texas with source listed as Sam M Alvis, Manager Ilon Research Division. However, it obviously is not complete and contradictory in places.
For example states starting number of pre 11 is either 1000 or 10,000, as mentioned before I have # 554, your 16 ga # is above number listed, could be from cleanup production after 1948. Your Sportsman # is below listed number.
This list states: Beginning year Beginning number Ending year Ending number Total production
Pre 11 1905 1000? or 10,000? 1910 101,714 91714
Model 11 12 gauge 1911 101,715 1947 794,899 510,663
16 gauge 1931 1,500,000 1948 1,556,587 56,588
20 gauge 1930 1,000,000 1948 1,068,961 68,961
Sportsman 12 gauge 1931 S 500,000 1948 S 602,466 102,467
16 gauge 1931 S 2,000,000 1948 S 249,172 49,173
20 gauge 1930 S 1,036,000 1948 S 1,072,994 44,155
Total production of all model 11/sportsman guns is listed as 837,328 and model 11 configured as Browning 63,700.
The S prefix was not used on many Sportsman and I have two with 4 digit numbers one with S and one without, also guns in and out of listed ranges.
Perhaps some discrepences could be accounted for by cleanup production after 1948 and some by WWII production where likely all parts in storage were used,
I have a military marked 1943 Trap/Skeet trainer 12 gauge that has 1905 very high grade special wood possibly originally intended for an engraved piece.
Hope this helps, Jerry

sighthound
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:39 am

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by sighthound » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:44 am

Just tried to post serial and production information on Remington model 11 and Sportsman I have, hope anyone can make sense out of it, am not good with computers and effort did not print out in table form typed in, good luck reading this, Jerry

ROBOPUMP
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:05 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by ROBOPUMP » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:06 pm

Thanks so much for the response and information.

I am now more confused than ever.
I just went and checked all my serial numbers. I think my guns would be a random sample.

I have 6 model 11s and only 3 fall in the serial number ranges furnished.
I have 5 Sportsman's and none of them fall in the serial number ranges.

So does anyone else have serial number information on these or is it a futile effort?

ROBOPUMP
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:05 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by ROBOPUMP » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:19 pm

Agh! I left out the pre 11 in my previous post which is S/N 9489 which is also out of range. it does have the Remington and Browning patent info on the left side of the receiver and nothing on the barrel. So, I think 1905.

ROBOPUMP
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:05 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by ROBOPUMP » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:35 pm

Well, I am wrong, the pre 11 would fall in the S/N range if started at 10,000. But I would think it would have been toward the 1909 or 1910 years of production with that range.

My next post will be about M8 and M81. I promise.

I have been thinking about it for a long time and I think the wrong sequence of events is followed when disassembling and reassembling the barrel assembly. I will try to write it out and supply pictures to explain. I breifly hinted this to Packmule one day on the phone. I think most of you will like it and some may even try it.

I will probably wait until the forum gets slow again.


ROBO

ROBOPUMP
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:05 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by ROBOPUMP » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:41 pm

I know, I promised to stay off the Model 11. But, I just ran across this one with the straight butt stock like a M8. Sightbound had told us about some being out there. It looks like it may have also had "cheeks" at some time. Nice looking gun with 5 choke tubes. Too bad it is an ovious reblue and even the barrel extention is blue. I asked the seller if it was reblued and he came back with "No, not to his knowledge." What do you think?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =219169235

Just thought some of you Model 11 buffs would like to see this one.

ROBOPUMP

sighthound
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:39 am

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by sighthound » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:00 pm

Gun appears to be or was a later pre-11 #3 Trap Grade, because of the larger bolt release button or an early 11C Trap Grade because of serial ahead of loading port. I have a pre-11 1908 gun with larger bolt release button, before that they were smaller and a model 11 1924 gun with serial on left side but am not sure exactly when these changes were made. AS far as I know the straight english grips were only on trap grades or special order and seldom encountered. Jerry

sighthound
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:39 am

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by sighthound » Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:38 pm

Was informed of the serial number on this 44944 which would make it a 1907 pre-11 #3 Trap Grade originally but obviously has had many things done to it since was made 104 years ago. jerry

Fowlgunner
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 7:24 pm

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by Fowlgunner » Mon May 30, 2011 7:52 pm

Guys,

I am new here. Trying to learn a little about Model 8 and Remington Autoloading Rifles.

I have been bitten, although by the Model 11 bug, pretty badly. LOL

I know the author of the Model 11 article that most people are familiar with. His name is Jim Tipton and the information that was presented was the best information known at that time (2000). The Remington Historical reasearch group, of which Mr. Tipton took part, did the best they could with the material available.

Mr. Tipton believes that the 10,000 number that was given in the records is not correct.

He personally owns number 2980 and I have 2603 so that would lead us to believe possibly 1,000 as a start according to the records. However, as pointed out by sighthound his 5xx gun would put us back at 1 or maybe 100.

If you study his chart you see that they used production numbers for each year to populate the records.

So according to the information Remington had available 7,807 Remington Autoloading Guns (Shotguns) were produced in 1905. 16,247 in 1906. 14,786 in 1907. 14,625 in 1908. 18,577 in 1909. 19,672 in 1910. And 18,140 in 1911. Which ushers out the Pre-Model 11 era.

Guns that I have documented do not exhibit the Remington-UMC markings until after approx. SN 110,000.

The straight grip stock shown in the previous post is standard on the No. 3 RAS or later Model 11C, but were commonly put on high grade guns as an option and were available on any grade.

Sighthound I would love to see some photos of your early gun if you wouldn't mind sharing.

Thanks again for sharing the knowledge and hopefully I'll find a RAR that I can afford.

Will Gurton

sighthound
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:39 am

Re: Pre Model 11

Post by sighthound » Tue May 31, 2011 10:14 am

Hello Will,
Will be pleased to share photos of my 11s, email your street address to gkking@cableone.net and I will pony express copies. Am not good with these confusers (computers), unable to post attachments and can't seem to learn how. Nice to share with others so afflicted, Thanks, Jerry (sighthound)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest