New .30 Rem brass splitting necks !?

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cantgrowup
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New .30 Rem brass splitting necks !?

Post by cantgrowup » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:29 pm

I just fired my 1949 Mod 81 in .30 Rem for the first time. I had loaded brand new Graf brass with 29.0 gr of IMR 3031 pushing a 150gr Hornady RN Interlock bullet (.308"). Afterwards, I noticed that 6 of the 50 brass had splits on the base of the necks just above the shoulder. To be honest, I had not closely inspected each of the new brass before loading for the first time, and there is a chance that the brass was defective before loading. (I looked at a second bag of 50 new brass and did not see any defects in those necks, but they may have a different lot). Or maybe those 6 brass were thin or weak in the neck to begin with and split upon firing. Has anyone else experienced new Graf .30 Rem brass splitting like this? I've sent Graf an email about it. These brass cost $1 each and hopefully I should get more than one or two loadings from them.

I'm using RCBS resizing dies. The Graf brass necks are 0.325" out of the bag. Resizing and pulling the expander ball back through the neck expands the necks to 0.326-8". Seating the .308" bullet expands the neck to 0.330". Since this is an obsolete cartridge, I don't have any brass dimension specs to look at.

Unfortunately, I did not notice the splits before resizing the fired brass, and maybe the chamber dimensions are out of spec. This 1949 rifle was made towards the end of the Model 81 run. Next time I shoot it, I'll measure the fired necks.

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Phyrbird
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Re: New .30 Rem brass splitting necks !?

Post by Phyrbird » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:10 pm

Phyrbird
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Re: New .30 Rem brass splitting necks !?

Post by Rifleman » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:48 pm

New brass shouldn't have split at the necks like that on a first firing. Overly 'hot' loads may, but your loadings don't appear to fall in that area. Did you ever hear back from Graf's? I'd call em, emails have a nasty habit of taking forever to get response's back. You never know, they may have had other problems with a 'lot' of .30 Rem brass not being treated right-to brittle. Back in the day when I wore a badge, my department bought a case of Smith and Wesson 125 g. HP .357 ammo. Upon firing the ammo the case necks were splitting on the first firings, something that never happens unless the brass has been reloaded a number of times due to belling the case mouth and/or firing after the brass has been worked a lot. Contacting Smith and Wesson, they had a number of complaints and advised the brass hadn't been treated right and sent another case. No problem with those. I reload for eight rifle and seven handgun calibers, have been reloading since 1976. The only cases I've ever really split much have been .357 and 44 Mag cases, but after a number of reloads, esp if they were 'hotter' loads. I've worn out brass in other ways, but never early on or after one or even a half dozen firings. I have brass I've reloaded 8-12 times before they're shot in some way. Primer pockets like to get sloppy before anything else a lot of times. I've used Graf's 30-40 Krag and 7.62 Russian brass with no problem.

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Phyrbird
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Re: New .30 Rem brass splitting necks !?

Post by Phyrbird » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:42 pm

R-man I have had both 30 & 32 Rem split. But it was older original loads, the age of brass & storage conditions can have that effect. Annealing usually corrects necks or shoulder splits, but one gotta pull bullets for that. I've yet to figure out a good way to remove old primers safely B4 the anneal other than a firing pin. Ideas??
Brother has a 338 Mag that splits shoulders on new brass. It's different. The fired brass is .020 longer than factory. Guess what, that's within SAAMI specs for that cartridge :shock: :!: :!: the max is .100. clearance in the chamber. I think that is WAY too much.
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rjmeyer314
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Re: New .30 Rem brass splitting necks !?

Post by rjmeyer314 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:53 pm

I was using Ken Waters best pet load from his book and had the same problem with split necks. I reduced the load by one grain and the problem went away.

cantgrowup
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Re: New .30 Rem brass splitting necks !?

Post by cantgrowup » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:55 pm

What is the Ken Waters load?

Fred
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Re: New .30 Rem brass splitting necks !?

Post by Fred » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:07 am

You can try annealing the New Grafs brass before you load. If that doesn't eliminate the issue I'd seek a solution through Grafs.

kenhwind
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Re: New .30 Rem brass splitting necks !?

Post by kenhwind » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:18 am

I've been using the Graf's brass with no serious issues, but did finally have some split cases with the .25 Remington brass. This brass is Quality Cartridge Brass and in my opinion doesn't seem to be as good as say genuine factory brass. But at least it is available and with the correct headstamp. I've used it in the .32, .30, and .25.

These rifles also seem to have a chamber specification on the high side, like most semi-autos of the day, as well as some other designs to facilitate extraction.
KEN

cantgrowup
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Re: New .30 Rem brass splitting necks !?

Post by cantgrowup » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:00 pm

Grafs suspects my chamber might be too large, so I've ordered some Cerrosafe metal to caste the chamber.

Rifleman
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Re: New .30 Rem brass splitting necks !?

Post by Rifleman » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:54 am

'cantgrowup'-From what I've read about Graff's brass, it has always been given high marks by other users. Before I bought some I asked them who manufacturers it for them and was advised 'Jamison', which has a good reputation. In regards to the chambers on the 8/81's being a tad larger than say bolt action rifles, I've always read and been told that semi-auto rifle chambers are a bit larger to aid extraction. I know M1 Garand 30/06 chambers are over any 03 Springfield. Same goes for any current manufactured rifles like the AR-15. Just passin' on what I've read in gun books, mags, forum info, and word of mouth. There are always exceptions though to everything. Unless there is something else going on, I'd still wonder about the brass not being done right from the get go. As I penned in my previous comment about Smith and Wesson's brass, I recall now some years ago one of the major ammo companies had a certain 'lot' of rifle ammo they had a recall on due to the brass not being treated right when formed and there was some case splitting going on.

I got curious about your question on Aug 9th about "What is the Ken Waters load" for the 30 Remington. I did type a post back last Sunday night and after proof reading, hit the wrong key somewhere and deleted it. Just didn't take the time to redo. What I found after searching the internet for any info on a Ken Waters recommended loading for the 30 Rem was not a lot. Found a lot of references, but most advised to get his book 'Pet Loads'. I did find one by Bandersnatch on this forum from back on 03/26/18 on the Great Model 8 section approx 3/4 down from the top on the first page. Bandersnatch had a load of 32.0 grains of IMR 3031 using a 150 grain Hornady Spitz bullet with a reference to Ken Waters 'Pet Load'. Whether Waters used that bullet or not, can't say, I assume he was referencing the powder and grains. A lot of Waters loads were developed over the course of many years starting back in the 30's. He was a popular gun magazine writer during the 50's and plus and was very knowledgeable in the reloading field. I don't know when his 'Pet Loads' book was last published and/or updated. Only problem with using loads developed and published 10, 20 plus years ago is that powder companies have changed the formulas somewhat over the years on older powders to burn cleaner, a bit faster, etc. I know in the reloading manual's put out by bullet/powder companies I bought back in the 70's differ in their recommendations what they're printing now for a lot of powders/calibers. They can be a guide, but I always check what current recommendations say. Many writers say to check older manual and load recommendations with newer ones. Nothing against Ken Waters and his Pet Loads, but reloading components do change.

I read here and there that since the 30 Remington was developed to mirror and compete with the 30-30 Winchester that loads found in reloading manuals for the 30-30 can be used for reloading the 30 Rem. Henwood makes reference to it in his book on reloading for the 8/81 in the caliber and so do some of the reloading manuals I have. I believe I read it once on this forum also. All of my Speer reload books make reference to it, as do my older Hornady ones. My Lyman ones don't or Sierra. Some of the recommendations have your 29.0 grains of 3031 sort of in the middle, while others have it near the max ""FOR the 30-30 Winchester loadings"". None have any 30 Remington info nor does any current ones that I saw. Henwood did state that bullets in the 150-170 grain range worked the best and he and others have found that if jacketed bullets were used, to use those geared for the 30-30. He stated that many other .308 diameter 30 caliber bullets used for reloading various other 30 caliber firearms may have a jacket thicker that will raise pressure's when firing in the 8/81's more than the 30 Rem was designed for. You may know all of this already, if not, hope it helps.

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Bandersnatch
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Re: New .30 Rem brass splitting necks !?

Post by Bandersnatch » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:23 pm

cantgrowup wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:55 pm
What is the Ken Waters load?
Ken's pet load for .30 Rem is 32 grains of IMR3031 and a 150 grain Spitzer bullet. He didn't specify which Spitzer he used and I used a Hornady SST designed for 300 Savage in order to keep the round within overall length, 2.525".

Remington factory literature of the day claimed that the .30 cal model 8's were capable of 3" at 100 yards. Waters figured they could be made to do better. He was right. Using this load I was able to group 1 3/4" at 100.
I am the cat who walks by himself. And all places are alike to me.

cantgrowup
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Re: New .30 Rem brass splitting necks !?

Post by cantgrowup » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:12 am

I loaded the brass for a second time and fired twenty in my 81 and thirty in an 8 that I had not fired yet. I got one more split neck in the Model 8, but no more split necks in the original 81. I had replaced the original six brass with six from my other unopened bag of 50, and fired three from each rifle. None of those replaced brass split, but it was a small population. Overall, I had 14% split, which seems unacceptable for brand new brass.

I contacted Graf with my new results and they told me that all of their current .30 Rem brass is from the same lot, so exchanging the entire batch of 50 won't do much good if the brass were not heat treated correctly. So... I'm breaking out my Bench-Source annealing machine and will try annealing the necks and shoulders on my remaining brass. I'll let you know how that goes.

kenhwind
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Re: New .30 Rem brass splitting necks !?

Post by kenhwind » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:29 am

I think that someone at Graf's is mistaken. Jamison doesn't list 30 Remington on their site, but Quality cartridge does, and their home page states that their properly headstamped brass is available from Graf & Sons.

I was just going through my Graf's .25 Remington brass and noticed that the brass had indication s of case head separation. I don't know how many times I've loaded this brass, but enough to just "when in doubt through it out!" I also was starting to get neck cracks and splits.

Remember this, we are shooting older rifles that do to the nature of the design would have a tendency to stretch, as do all guns I suppose.
KEN

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Re: New .30 Rem brass splitting necks !?

Post by Rifleman » Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:24 pm

Oh Oh!!! MY bad! I should have been a little more informative. My post when I advised Graff's advised me about Jamison making their brass, I should have also penned I was referring to 30-40 Krag brass wkhen I was talking with them. Guess I assumed when I posted about the Graff 30 Remington brass, it was also made by Jamison. 'kenhwind's' post probably reflects the truth. My apologies. Rifleman

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