308 Brass to 35

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eagles
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308 Brass to 35

Post by eagles » Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:11 pm

I'm thinking of buying some 35 Brass that is being made from 308 Brass, Its a heavier brass. Some one else said since ite heavier , its thicker and cuts way down on powder capacity. Any thoughts on this ? I want to duplicate the buffalo bore plus p 35 loads. Remember the model 8 was designed to handle the 300 savage a much higher pressure round in the 47, 000 range compared to the 33,000 apx of the 35 so my gun has no problems with the buffalo bore ammo , but for the fact they dont have any in stock due to brass. A heavier case would also be stronger just as the double tap 450 lets them load a safe round in the 45 axp that is a lot stronger . I just dont know how much the 308 brass cuts back on case capaicity ? Thanks

Fred
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by Fred » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:04 am

I don't think the loss of case capacity is the concern with the thick brass. I think it's a pressure problem for a given load. The difference in capacity is something you could actually measure if you already had some factory 35 brass for comparison, but it's more practical to reduce the book loads by 5% or 10% and work up from there so you don't put yourself and your rifle in harm's way.

eagles
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by eagles » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:52 am

He replied the 308 to 35 Rem holds 2 grains less powder. Does anyone know how close the case on the 35 rem is to being filled with the 220 grain load ? When double tap went to a heavier brass (308 again ) for their 45 acp they were able to produce the 450 round which is much more powerful and can be shot in a standard size 45 pistol . They claim the heavier brass makes it safer and that makes sense to me , more metal between the powder and the person , no ? I'm trying to figure out if the buffalo bore type load can be loaded in these cases , with a 2 grain less capacity ? There would be nothing to load up to if the case capacity is too small to start with.

Fred
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by Fred » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:15 am

I chronied a 215gr paper patched cast air-cooled clip-on wheel weight projectile at 2150fps from my M8 with 44gr of H414. The powder was settled (tapped) and just level with the base of the neck inside the case. Cartridge overall length was close to 2.550" It gives a good shoulder massage.

I would say that the .35 Rem is not a .358 Winchester and the Model 8/81 is a somewhat elderly design. If you want to extract 'modern' top-end performance from a 35 Remington beyond the SAAMI pressure spec I'd suggest going to a more robust action instead of flirting with danger on a rifle no longer in production.


eagles
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by eagles » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:14 am

Im dealing in common sense and science here and not stereotypes about the age of the design.You only have to ask ONE question if the gun is in proper condition and head space etc IE safe to fire. WHAT PRESSURE WAS IT DESIGNED TO OPERATE FROM ? Then you will see many were made , and still are firing THE 300 SAVAGE ROUND. That is today , as it was then a MUCH higher pressure round than any 35 Remington round that has ever been commercially sold. THAT INCLUDES THE BUFFALO BORE PLUS P ROUNDS . So if I am foolish in just trying to equal a commercial round being sold for the 35 Rem that falls tens of thousands of pounds under the over the counter 300 savage rounds many have the model 8 in then your saying in effect as well , that everyone who has a 300 savage model 8 needs to stop shooting it at once as its far too dangerous to shoot to old design at those pressures , ones I plan on staying well under anyway ? .

Fred
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by Fred » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:38 am

I am aware that the 81 is chambered in 300 Savage and that today the 300Sav is loaded to a higher pressure than 35Rem despite a .020" larger case head making for more bolt thrust than what would be experienced with the .35 at the same pressures.

Yes, with hand loading you can exceed the SAAMI spec which probably tends to the low side to accommodate 110 years of various rifle designs with unknown quality in metallurgy.

Feel free to use your common sense and your science to work up a load from a safe pressure and when the brass stretches too much then take your cue to stop. I am nobody's mother. You don't have to do what I say.

eagles
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by eagles » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:13 am

I understand , thanks . If you check you will see the 300 savage was ALWAYS loaded at higher pressures than the 35 and I will stay well under those numbers

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Phyrbird
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by Phyrbird » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:01 pm

If you do the research you will find Ken Waters in Handloader Mag did a study article on 35Rem in bolt rifles and the R760. Pressures were much higher than standard 35R loads. I have completed (decades ago) tests with similar results. The 35 in the right action is capable of a lot better performance with minimal casehead expansion. (.0006)
Don't eventhink about it with our ladies; JM Browning was good, but was not designing for 308-358 pressures.
Respect our ladies and give them the right fuel.....
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eagles
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by eagles » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:41 pm

For some reason, I feel some people are not getting what I am saying, I am well aware you can load any caliber in a bolt action to levels not suitable in any auto or lever. No intention of that . If anyone would read my posts carefully , you will note I will be duplicating the Buffalo bore 35 rem plus P which has a pressure WAY WAY WAY BELOW THE ORIGINAL PRESSURE OF THE 300 SAVAGE OF WHICH HUNDREDS OF MODEL 8 GUNS ARE STILL SHOOTING today with never a single case of a failed rifle with the 300 factory pressures that I am aware of . if anyone can show me that model 8s are failing shooting factory ammo in the 300 with pressures tens of thousands of pounds more than I will be using , please post those . The 35 can be loaded higher for a bolt like all rounds by seating the bullet out for more powder room etc etc and I have no interest in trying to get bolt action pressures in a model 8, I cant make this more clear or scientifically, mathematically viable than I am. So just some above factory loads and then for special hunts.

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Adam Lee
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by Adam Lee » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:21 pm

Eagles, it is all good. I understand what you are saying - pressures and the Model 8/81's are always a point of theory here. I agree in that the .300 Savage pressures - if you look at the CUP and SAMMI specs - indicate that we have some latitude on where we can go with loading our rounds.

That's all I got - wife and I are making dinner and the dawgz are wild!

Adam
I am a regular joe, consisting of 78% coffee, 12% hot air, 9% organizational abilities, and 1% luck.

eagles
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by eagles » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:29 pm

Thanks Adam , just as a theoretical example the original PSI the 300 was loaded to, because of the model 8 and savage 99 was 47,000 psi. If you take a 35 rem it has been reported that 41.5 grains (worked up from 37 ) of H335 using a .358 sierra RN col 2.485 gives 2,343 fps with a psi of 42,000 So some safe increase is a possibility , under pressure the gun handled all the time.

denny35
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by denny35 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:41 pm

Interesting discussion. The observation that a 300 Savage can be loaded to ~47000 CUP seems to be a common argument for heavy loads in a 35 remington, but I wonder about the physics here. Max pressure is a consideration for bolt thrust, which is a key consideration in guns with "no moving parts", such as bolts, slides, and levers. So the 300 Savage argument would be fine for such rifles. But recoil energy, which is not a direct function of pressure, will govern how much a model 8/81 gets battered about. A heavy recoiling 35 rem load may not result in a catastrophic bolt failure, but it may unduly batter a mechanism designed for less recoil energy. Just a theory, but one I'd prefer not to test in my model 81.

denny

eagles
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by eagles » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:58 pm

Recoil energy is simply the free recoil velocity squared times one-half the mass.So basically Mass times acceleration A 300 savage with a 180 grain and a 35 Remington with a 200 grain are not much apart at all. The 300 is a lot faster and with 20 grains separating them id be surprised if there was much difference in free recoil to the gun that would matter if the gun was safe to shoot anyway. As one example in equal weight guns, the 300 savage with a light 150-grain load at 2630 gives 10,6 pounds of free recoil. The 35 with a 200-grain slug at 2050 is 13.6. That's 3 pounds and not even with the normal 180-grain big game load of the 300. I would not shoot heavy loads in my 35 all day but I see no harm in the Buffalo bore, within factory allowed pressure to be used for a few shots in hunting season if needed on larger game.If anyone anywhere has experienced even one failure of a model 8 using them, please post it.I can't find a single case.

denny35
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by denny35 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:13 am

I've been thinking about this because I've been planning to load some 220 grain Speers for my 35 rem 81, but as far has I know factory loads have never exceeded 200 grains. I've been concerned that this has the potential to subject my 81 to abuse for which it was never designed.

So here's my resolution to date:

The heaviest recoiling mainstream factory load I can find for the 300 Savage is the 180 gr Federal softpoint, advertised at 2,350 fps. Recoil energy is directly proportional to the square of recoil momentum, and recoil momentum is simply mass times velocity of the ejecta. Ignoring the mass and velocity of the powder, 180 x 2350 = 423,000 "grain-feet" of momentum. Thus, a 220 grain bullet achieves equal momentum at 423,000/220=1922 fps.

Thus for example I'm a little leery of using Hodgdon's published max data for H4895 which shows a velocity of 2010 fps for the 220 Speer. Yes, the pressure wouldn't be a issue, but the "wear-and-tear" factor might be a concern. Note that recoil energy is proportional to the *square* of momentum, so this adds up very quickly.

The question is how much did Mr. Browning over-engineer the 8/81? Anyone willing to cycle a few 8/81's to failure to see if it matters?;-)
denny

eagles
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by eagles » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:09 am

I think we are on our own here minus someone with a lab doing the work. I won't ever use heavy loads as any constant fodder but if you sight in with normal low power loads and then note the adjustment from firing a few in specs but heavier recoiling hunting rounds, just for special hunts . How many will you shoot a year, one to five maybe ? Im thinking that won't effect much extra wear.

denny35
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by denny35 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:09 pm

I think your logic is sound. But one should never pass up a chance to argue one needs a new gun. You don't need to mention the 1-5 shots a year ;) .

To address your initial question about brass thickness - 308 brass varies a great deal in volume from make to make, and this is a concern of much discussion among the 1000 yard M1A competitive shooting crowd. Military brass (Lake City) can be anything like 20-30 grains heavier than Winchester, which seems to consistently be the lightest. Somewhere, I recall a rule of thumb that I think 11 grains of brass translates to 1 grain of water capacity. However, this is only a rough rule, as alloy composition and geometry varies between makes, which effects weight.

Because there is less room for the powder gas to expand, smaller volume usually translates into higher pressure for the same charge weight. The advice of professionals I've read in this case seems to be to measure the water capacity in grains for a case with published data (ie Remington), and then measure the water capacity of your mystery case. Reduce the load by (at least) the difference in water capacity, from start to max.

The increased pressure may result in increased velocity, but not necessarily in proportion to the increased pressure - one rapidly reaches a point of diminishing returns.

It might seem perverse, but I might be a little concerned about the case being "too strong" - that is, cases need to expand and stretch to seal gases from blowing back into the action, and 35 rem does not generate much pressure to perform this. Particularly if the 308 brass went through a lot of working, it may be substantially work-hardened on top of the additional thickness. Don't be surprised if you get sooty cases with light lots in thick cases.

denny

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Phyrbird
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by Phyrbird » Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:09 pm

An interesting alternative n the 300 Savage could be a sabot round. I've done similar in the 30Rem with good results. While I have not chronoed speeds yet, I now have a new Lady in 300 to try some. An issue is action cycling fully so far. :oops: The lighter projectile may not have the right impulse to compress the buffer spring. It's an interesting concept. :x Data link for loads: :ugeek:

http://www.eabco.com/Reports/sabot05.gif

http://www.eabco.com/Reports/sabot08.gif
Phyrbird
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Sarge756
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by Sarge756 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:17 pm

Denny,
We covered the 308 to 35 issue on a thread here awhile back. Surprised our member GRUMPA has not chimed in to fill you in on his experience but he spends most of his time on the Castboolits site. He seems to have developed the method to turn out quality converted Military brass to 35 Rem. I have bought it ,loaded it and shot it. His claims for the product are 100% true. Take a look at the link below and your concerns should be answered.
Joe


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... -Mil-brass
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denny35
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by denny35 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:51 am

Interesting; I checked out the link. He apparently uses Lake City 308 brass, which is milspec, generally much thicker/heavier than say Winchester brass. I load quite a bit for the 308; using a book max load developed for a Winchester case in a LC case will generally result in obvious over-pressure issues because of the smaller volume in which the same amount of gas can expand. Has anyone ever measured the water capacity of this reformed brass to know how much a load should actually be reduced? I've noticed for example that Nosler now publishes the water capacity of the cases it uses for load development, which seems like a really good idea for the careful reloader. By the time the usual "pressure signs" occur in a saami low pressure round such as the 35 rem, one is probably drastically exceeding the saami max; they shouldn't be relied on.

denny

GRUMPA
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Re: 308 Brass to 35

Post by GRUMPA » Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:53 am

On the brass I convert over, at first, was more of request from folks on other sites knowing what I can do and finding something along the lines of Unobtanium at the time. To be honest I've spent a lot of hours developing a technique that will produce consistent results and performance.

Folks that received the converted cases were for a lack of words completely dumbfounded that a person can actually take a 308 and make a 35Rem case from it. Many of them use TC's that can withstand higher pressures, and last a lot longer than factory brass.

There's a person on another site that works the Marlin rifle so it can withstand higher than normal pressures. That person has had the brass I convert for a while and is still using it to develop a more powerful load. How well they do at higher than normal pressures in someone elses firearm at higher than normal pressures is something I just don't know.

Just read post #17 on: http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/sg-35 ... ead-2.html

And here's the accuracy test results using the same case but using higher than average speeds and pressures. http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/sg-35 ... count.html

The things about those cases is...to date...nobody has ever gotten back to me letting me know they wore the case out. They tell me they look great when they get them, and I've had folks tell me they've gotten 10 reloads, but never about how many loadings they've gotten before the case finally gave out. The person using the higher than average pressures on the other site has loaded them up 6x so far, with no signs of wearing out.

I almost want to proclaim that the cases are "Bullet-Proof" but in my mind that's kinda mis-leading and borders on misrepresentation and I'm not like that.

Here's another post written by someone else, only he's not loading them beyond printed loading data. https://30eca00a039f-002391.vbulletin.n ... -mil-brass

So as far as the actual rifle being able to withstand higher than average pressures, I honestly can't say. To be honest I have neither the funds nor the time to pursue anything like that. But the 1 thing that is in print is that the cases I convert hold up a lot better that what's available to the general public.

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