Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

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gcro3948
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Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by gcro3948 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:20 am

I have been shooting my Model 8 in 32 cal. with a scope at a target 100 yards away. The bulls eye is 2 inches across and the black part around it is 6 inches across. I am resting the gun on two bean bag rifle rests. My groups of shots are pretty much all in the 6 inch black circle but seldom in the red bulls eye. Is this type of accuracy normal for a Model 8 or is it poor, if it is bad is there any thing I can do about it. Thank you for any advise, gcro3948.

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Sarge756
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by Sarge756 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:57 pm

Well I`ll give it a try,though your information is a little sketchy. 6 inch grouping??? from a rest at 100 would not be acceptable for me. This isn`t a bolt gun so we can`t consider bedding or free floating the barrel so things to do to improve accuracy are somewhat limited. First thing I would do would insure everything is tight. Crank the takedown screw and be sure there is no play. You didn`t advise what scope or scope mount type but whatever it is recheck it for tightness . If it is a proven scope that you may have used on another rifle this would eliminate it as the source of poor accuracy. Don`t know if you have had the rifle apart but if so the barrel nut needs to be snug. Ammo and bullet choice can affect accuracy too. Are you shooting old factory ammo or reloads? if reloads what are they? Is the bore really clean and not leaded or copper fouled?
Joe
".......ain't many troubles that a man cain't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."

gcro3948
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by gcro3948 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:54 am

Thanks Joe for the information, everything is tightened up good, the scope is new and I've not tried it on another rifle, I will check that out. I'm shooting 30 caliber Remington brass necked up to 32 caliber, 170 grain, 2000 fps. That is all I know about the ammo because I have somebody else load them for me. I know so little about ammo that I would not even know what to ask him.
One thing I did notice is there is a very slight side to side movement between the barrel nut and the barrel nut bushing. It seems to me that this slight slackness might affect the accuracy? I would like to know your opinion on that please.
Thank you and anybody else who chimes in . gcro3948.

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Roger
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by Roger » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:22 am

Sir,
I've tested all 5 model 8/81 calibers extensively. I can tell you a great degree of certainty that the more free
Play there is between the barrel nut and the bushing,the worse your accuracy will be. Think about the Colt 1911 pistol. Same exact system,same exact designer.I can also tell you that I regularly find that each rifle likes a certain load that I load up myself. There's no short cut to good accuracy with old rifles. Every component can change the equation. Sorry If I caused you to be confused. Email me directly if you need some proven starting loads. My email address is in my address box below
Roger
Roger
raw4555@gmail.com

gcro3948
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by gcro3948 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:37 pm

Thanks Rodger, and you did not confuse me ,I understand what you are saying. I think I'm going to start with addressing the side to side play between the barrel nut and barrel shroud bushing. I've had no luck locating ether one of them new, I'm reluctant to buy an used part because it may be as worn as mine. I might consider having a barrel shroud bushing made to match my barrel nut. The other thing I'm going to do is clean the barrel real good and check the scope on another gun
as previously suggested by Joe,[Sarge756] .
Thanks for all the information you guys have supplied, nobody that I know around where I live knows anything about a model 8 or 81. The local gun smith has not even seen one.
This gun is a family heirloom and it means a lot to me. I want to use it as it was intended to be used, I'm der hunting with it this season!
Thanks again, Gary gcro3948

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Sarge756
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by Sarge756 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:10 pm

That sounds like a good plan Gary. For bore cleaning there is a product I use that does a great job. I have mentioned it on here before when we had a thread on rust removal without damaging bluing. The product is Big 45 Frontier metal cleaning pads . Take a look at their website through link below and find description of the product and how to use it. If there was ever truth in advertising it is on that site.
Joe

http://www.big45.com/
".......ain't many troubles that a man cain't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."

neverguided
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by neverguided » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:37 pm

A little late in replying here Gary, but having loaded extensively for all four calibers, your results are about typical for the 32 Rem. The 32 has the reputation for being the least accurate of the lot, which has been the case for me as well. The most accurate of my period load duplications, and the one I ultimately settled on, shoots right at 4 1/2" at 100 yards. The worst did this at 50. Hope this gives you some perspective.

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Roger
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by Roger » Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:52 am

Sir,
I don't want to start an argument,but I've found no correlation whatsoever,to poor accuracy and the rem.32 caliber. I'm fairly confident that I've spent as much time or more,shooting 32 Remington m-8/81s as anyone. I've spent many,many hours at the range shooting all my m-8/81s. And literally more than a thousand rounds combined. Poor fit of the barrel nut and the bushing of the barrel jacket has alot to do with it. Sometimes a worn bore is the reason,but usually in conjunction with the loose fitting barrel nut. And by loose,I mean any movement with your hands grasping the jacket and nut, then trying to move the 2parts back and forth. Rarely does pitting in old bores make for the accuracy problems. However a worn bore(worn out rifling) will do it. That goes for my old Winchesters or Remingtons. People say the same thing about 32 Win. Special. Not true. I have Win 1894s and Rem.m-8/81s that will shoot everything into one large hole at 50 yards. But this is with my special loads arrived at by massive testing. Every rifle has a load that it likes the best. I've also found that some old rifles like a little bit slower burning powders.
Actually 25rem. and 25/35win. are the two most likely calibers to be partial to slower burning powders.
All that being said, the Hornady FTX bullets do increase your accuracy. The 32caliber ones work exceptionally well in my rem m-8/81s.
Thanks for your time,
Roger
Roger
raw4555@gmail.com

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Sarge756
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by Sarge756 » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:21 am

Roger, pictured below is a fellow that will more than likely agree with your assessment. I watched Carl(Phyrbird) spend some time at the bench at Jack`s farm with his 32. I have an interest in it too cause he was shooting my reloads. The reloads were fairly mild 170gr Hornady in front of 31grs of BLC2.
Carl will probably be along in awhile. What you may ask is that contraption on the bench??? It was a shell catcher (Note the high grass underfoot). You can ask Carl if it worked. I do know the reloads worked very well and he was pleased with the groups.
Joe
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Sebastian21
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by Sebastian21 » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:52 am

I have shot the 32 many times, probley 500 times using reloads. I have no trouble getting 2 inch groups at a 100 yards using a peep sight. I use the 170 grain bullet with 3031 powder. I only neck size the cases and they feed and chamber perfect.

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Phyrbird
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by Phyrbird » Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:43 pm

Joe Thanks for the Kudos.
With 2 32s, both M8s I have limited experience. My "Not Krieger" was grouping reasonable at the event, but with the sights the way they are I was having difficulty zeroing to my satisfaction, therefore I hesitate to make claims of group size. The GrD with the 41AT FBI sight did a lot better. I'd think the 100yd group may be about 3-4". For a round that would start dropping a lot at 200 yards this is definitely minute of deer.
I agree with most of the posts regarding mechanics of these rifles, in that the condition of the barrel bushing and barrel nut along with the play in the bolt/receiver will affect accuracy. It's a shame we don't have smiths or machinists making repro spares for these parts to improve our ladies. A point I have not seen posted is there are different sizes of barrel nut for differing calibers. I am currently going through mine and taking dimensions as I clean. I agree the design is very similar to the 1911 Colts. Another thing not mentioned so far is a few of the rifles get loose threads in the barrel sleeve where it meets the receiver. This can be corrected by a braze job in the threads; (no you will never take it apart again) or by using some of Loctite's wicking thread sealer.
At the same time consistency of loads makes a huge difference. The 8" gong at 180yds at the Event can speak :lol: that our ladies can be accurate. I've posted the load Bob and I used to ring it. (35Rem)
A few things that can really improve the quality of your reloads:
neck size: it assures the brass fits the chamber, till you load 4-5 times. Then full length size once.
primer pocket reamer/chamfer: more consistent ignition
outside neck turn: I miked lots of new factory brass with a tube mike; you would be amazed that .002-.004 variance in unfired new brass is common
I really like the sliding bar powder measures. They deliver more accurate drops by a factor of 10. Such as the Dillon, the Lee AutoDisk, the old Redding "twist" model, or the Quinetics. I have used the majority on the market and refuse to swap back. :twisted:
So far I've had excellent results with the Hornady spire points, and will be trying the new 165g FTX in 32 soon. I think it and some LeveRevolution powder will be impressive.
I also have embarrassing times with loose scopes; :oops: Redfield dovetails, Weaver, & Bushnell mounts have all worked loose on me. I am a fan of these: Griffin & Howe, Pachymar swing over, or (that's right) Holden Ironsighters. None of these have ever loosened on my rifles. Research the scope mount movement article in Am Rifleman some years back.
A tip on mount screws: Locktite makes a "small screw " version :ugeek: that will not strip your fine threads out; no heating to remove, it hold very well, but it's expensive. About double.

Contraption you say :!: :!: I have you know I have not lost a single case from my pistols when my homemade brass catcher is set to catch right. Trouble is it just drops cases that eject straight up smack down on the table, then they promptly roll off :!: :cry: Our ladies won't kick rounds out to the side, they are very upright. :lol: or straight laced. The catcher is about $10 for a cheap fish dipnet, some copper tubing, and a used potato sack; with plywood and block base.
Phyrbird
SOKY

neverguided
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by neverguided » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:11 pm

I can only relay personal experience, seemingly echoed by Henwood (author of The Great Model 8), but am open-minded to other assertions. Anyone have a 100 yard target reflective of their accuracy claims utilizing full-house jacketed factory-duplication loads?

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Sarge756
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by Sarge756 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:05 am

I`ll get the popcorn ready !
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neverguided
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by neverguided » Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Well, we all hear assertions of accuracy and/or individual capabilities, so let's provide proof to the OP and present him with an achievable goal.

I can only conclude that my experiences appear to be different than some of the others here; but admittedly similar to observations by Henwood, Whelen (4 MOA to 200 yards), and even the folks at Remington (4.5" 10 shot groups at 100 yds.) who made the rifle.

From my perspective, I have owned, loaded for, tested, and hunted with historical rifles (from AK to AZ) by Colt (Lightning), Marlin (Models 1893 & 1894), Remington (14/141 & 8/81), Standard (Models M & G), and Winchester (1873, 76, 85, 86, 94, & 95). As a matter of fact, a Model 8 in .30 caliber is what I selected last year when I drew a limited UT pronghorn tag, so you know I'm a fan. That buck incidentally was taken from the prone with a front-quartering shot at 158 yards with my best factory-duplication load, which shoots right at 3" at 100 yards.

However, as much as I enjoy carrying Browning's autoloader in the field, I personally have found it to be the least accurate of virtually every historical rifle I own. With factory-duplication loads reliably-fed from the magazine, I have been unable to do better than 3 - 4"+ at 100 yards with this system (depending again on caliber). It's hard to imagine doing any better from a reciprocating barrel, and likewise believe that testing a rifle at 50 yards is insufficient to draw any realistic conclusions at true rifle ranges.

So getting back to the OP's question, I think you're in the ballpark. Sort through the facts and opinions, but my experimentation seems to parallel conclusions by the rifle's manufacturer and various authors over the years that 4.5" 3-shot groups at 100 yards is a realistic and achievable goal with an 8/81 in .32 caliber, and may be the limit of your rifle's inherent mechanical accuracy. If you make it there, go out into the woods and enjoy.

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Sarge756
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by Sarge756 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:41 pm

Better get busy with more Popcorn. Looks like a crowd starting to gather.
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Adam Lee
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by Adam Lee » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:16 pm

I'm waitin' for Carl to process the replies. Maybe he'll get a word in....to show some love for the .32!

(BTW I am in agreement with Carl about the "false" assumption that .32 Rem is just not an accurate round. Why? Because Carl is the Man!)

Adam
I am a regular joe, consisting of 78% coffee, 12% hot air, 9% organizational abilities, and 1% luck.

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Phyrbird
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by Phyrbird » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:33 pm

While I do have a large, (perhaps xtra large) :) south side we will never hear an admission to being the south end of a north going mule. :D I appreciate Sarge not posting the wrong end of the guys hanging out at the fence. Seems like a rather rocky view for popcorn to me... :lol:
Fangs alot for the next photo, I hope this crew has a good dentist. The braces will be expensive 8-)
I also think there is a certain challenge to some of these posts. Appears our other historic pics on the forum are not enough proof our Ladies can be accurate. Yes semi-autos are noted for accuracy issues; However, I've had good'uns ;) and bad'uns :x in all types of actions. If they don't shoot straight they are trading material. :P
If the opportunity presents itself I'll photo some targets. Have mercy on the older eyes, but I know the peep sights and optics will help. You other shooters should help our members out with groups and loads to achieve the goal.
Phyrbird
SOKY

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81police
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Re: Model 8 32 cal. accuracy

Post by 81police » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:17 am

Well said Phyrbird....or as Jim would say FURbird :shock:
Cam Woodall
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